I ran across a reference to Adelbert von Chamisso [ˈaːdl̩bɛʁt fɔn ʃaˈmɪso] (who came up here in the context of “translingualism” in 2021) and suddenly wondered what kind of name Chamisso was. A little trawling produced this footnote from the Transactions of the English Goethe Society VII (1891-92), p. 109:
* Einem alten Hause entsprossen. Chamisso’s words. Works (2nd edition in 6 volumes), Vol. I., S. 5. This edition will be used for all subsequent quotations. The name Chamissot occurs ᴀ.ᴅ. 1305. Other forms are found : Chamizzot, Chemizzot, Chamisso, perhaps also Chamesson. In Oporto there is living a Senhor Chamiço.
I don’t know whether anyone has traced it farther back, but I love that final line “In Oporto there is living a Senhor Chamiço.” I wonder what his story was?
I see that the English WP believes that “belles lettres” means “beautiful letters.”
I wonder how they came up with that? It doesn’t seem to be based on the French or German versions.
I’m guessing the Comte de Chamisso (+1874) whose grave is Frenchly documented here may have been Adelbert’s nephew? https://www.appl-lachaise.net/chamisso-louis-auguste-adolphe-comte-de-x-1874/
Surely you recall Brouillon’s article, “Les origines d’Adelbert de Chamisso”, in the Travaux de l’Académie nationale de Reims, 127:287–371 (1910)? As it says, the family came from Italy, and the name Chamissot may derive from camiciotto ‘blouse’.
I had somehow missed that, so thanks, that sounds plausible!
Bert Shirt.
Raul Brandão was a Portuguese writer, 1867-1930. He wrote a short theatrical piece, O Gebo e a Sombra, in which a character is named Chamiço. The character is a musician. Gebo is another character. The name translates as zebu, an oxlike ruminant.
Gebo
nome masculino
2. [Depreciativo] Indivíduo que se veste mal, sem elegância, e cujo aspecto é ordinário.
3. [Zoologia] Mamífero ruminante da Ásia e de África, parecido com o boi, que tem no cachaço uma giba. = ZEBU
masculine name
2 [Deprecating] A person who dresses badly, without elegance, and whose appearance is vulgar.
3 [Zoology] A ruminant mammal from Asia and Africa, similar to the ox, which has a hump on its neck. = ZEBU
Chamiço doesn’t appear in any of the Portuguese dictionaries on my shelves or in the interwebs.
Senhor Chamiço of Oporto may have been in the port trade. You can still buy a bottle of F. Chamisso Filho et Silva 11815(!) Vintage Port, just $895.
Marked down from $5,430.00!
@cuchuflete
https://dicionario.priberam.org/chami%C3%A7o
I go for porco magro. If you don’t like that, there is the placename in Alentejo.
@PlasticPaddy
Porco magro sounds about right. Especially if one likes oxymorons.
Muito ‘brigado.
From the same page-
Origem etimológica:chama + -iço.
“chamiço”, in Dicionário Priberam da Língua Portuguesa [em linha], 2008-2024, https://dicionario.priberam.org/chami%C3%A7o.
@DE: Bert von Shirt, Sir, thank you very much.
We Extreme Radical Socialists™ scorn such relics of feudalism, but I am prepared to compromise on “Bert the Shirt.”
Except that a Bert shirt is a shirt, not a Bert.
Not at all. “The Shirt” is to be construed like “the MacDonald.”
The Shirt of That Ilk.
That is to say, the chieftain of Clan Shirt (Clann Siortagh.)
That might work, except that Bert shirt already refers to a specific iconic garment. I guess that’s just not the case outside North America.
The McWhorters, hereditary “linguists” (in the Ghanaian sense) to the chieftains of Clan Shirt, in fact bear a cognate family name:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_s-mobile
That might work, except that Bert shirt already refers to a specific iconic garment. I guess that’s just not the case outside North America.
It’s not the case for me either. I remember the character, but I didn’t know he was who you meant, and I couldn’t have told you what kind of shirt he wears.
Meme fashion is a stern taskmaster.
The shirt is significant. Ernie is the goofy kid and wears kid-style horizontal stripes. Bert is the opposite (and technically, it’s a striped vest.)
Don’t put your semiotics aside when watching Sesame Street. Especially not when watching Sesame Street.
I know this as a joke in Undertale: “You’re a kid too, right? I can tell ’cause you’re wearing a striped shirt.”
Fandom consensus seems to be that it’s a reference to the Earthbound/Mother JRPG series (which Undertale is heavily inspired by). TVTropes tells me that the franchise name “Mother” is a reference to a John Lennon song, so despite being a Japanese game it’s definitely in conversation with some Anglophone culture, but it seems like kind of a jump from Lenon to Sesame Street.
Is this a broader symbolic association?? I can’t say I’ve really noticed it myself elsewhere myself. Unless the Blues Clues guy is supposed to be a kid [Correction — there have now been three Blues Clues guys, and they are 2 for 3 on horizontal stripey shirts.] I guess Blue’s Clues is *for* kids… but that doesn’t work with the Bert-Ernie distinction explained by Y.
(I have also heard a “fashion rule” that horizontal stripes are to be avoided because they make you look fat, but since stores continue to sell clothes with horizontal stripes I assume that rule isn’t universal)
@sarah: The guy on Blues Clues (or at least the first one) was definitely supposed to be a kid. You could tell this because of the way he was shown. I don’t know whether it was done via a lens during filming or in post, but his body was depicted foreshortened—vertically compressed to give him more childlike proportions. It wasn’t especially noticeable expect when he shrugged with his arms out horizontally, because then the modified aspect ratio made his arms looks freakishly long.
Ernie is kind of a chubby kid, with a round face. The stripes suit him. Likewise the chubby kid on The Far Side.
Bert is in the same cohort as Ernie: they are socially equal. But Bert emulates an adult.
(I have also heard a “fashion rule” that horizontal stripes … I assume that rule isn’t universal)
According to Qi, that “rule” is nonsense. You can also find the opposite of that rule on the interwebs, which more or less proves it’s nonsense. Youtube also has David Mitchell’s rant as to how much counter-counter-intuitive nonsense is involved.
Since this is the Hattery, it’s probably one of those illusions depending on whether your culture has a more rectilinear environment.
That doesn’t matter, if the rule is cultural. People will wear vertical stripes because they think it will have the effect, whether or not it provably does.
Dicionário Priberam da Língua Portuguesa [em linha]:
chamiço
nome masculino
1. Lenha meio por queimar para fazer carvão.
…
The entry covering chamiza (also chamisa) and chamizo in Coromines’ etymological dictionary of Spanish.
I know chamiza/chamisa especially from New Mexico, where it is the name of the ubiquitous and beautiful native plant Ericameria nauseosa. (I gather that an English name is rubber rabbitbrush, which is nice to say, although I have never actually heard anyone say it, that I can recall.) The species epithet is nauseosa, but I love chamisa honey—I had it with breakfast every day when I lived in Santa Fe, looking out at my garden blanketed in silvery foliage and yellow flowers. Also note chamizo meaning ‘fourwing saltbush (Atriplex canescens)’, a widespread plant of western North America with silvery foliage and yellowish flowers. And in other regions, chamizo can be a name for other plants, too.
@Xerib: That reminds me of the fact that the flowers that are said around here in the Southeast to produce the best honey are those of the sourwood.
Sourwood’s name is nonetheless fairly earned. It is also known as “tree sorrel.” However, the acidic compounds that make its leaves sour are much nastier than those in dock sorrel. Chewing sourwood leaves has traditional use as a laxative. (Crossing over threads, this reminds me that T. E. Lawrence talks a lot about the ailments he and his camels suffered. The camels could get by on significantly fouler water than a human could stomach, but he describes how it gave the animals diarrhea.)
My last comment got me wondering about etymology (and gave me something to do while I avoid doing several dreary work-related tasks). The origin of sorrel is pretty much what I guessed: from the West Germanic sour word, mediated through Middle French. However, the synonym dock is of unknown origin. It goes back to Old English, but is apparently only found in English and Dutch. The OED says it is unclear whether the English and Dutch are ancestral cognates, or whether one (probably the Dutch, for dating reasons) is a borrowing of the other.
Come to think of it (procrastinating further…), do any Americans use dock? I certainly do not. I have no memory of knowing the word prior to encountering it in the, “But, El-ahrairah, you have no ears and fleas will not go to dock leaves,” context. I am honestly not sure whether I already knew then that it was a synonym of sorrel. Moreover, does pretty much anybody at all call the plant dock in a culinary context? The OED has citations, but it seems like in soups, salads, and sauces, it is overwhelmingly known as sorrel.
Some Rumex species is or are common in wet areas around here, and I certainly call it or them dock. That’s what they’re called in on-line sources. I hadn’t quite put it together that edible sorrel is in the same genus. Like you, I wouldn’t expect it to be called dock in cooking.
do any Americans use dock? I certainly do not.
Nor do I. I’m not sure I’d ever known the word (in that sense).
Thanks, Xerîb. I was going to write about the plant but you saved me the trouble.
The common English spelling is chamise, with an s. By coincidence, I was at a nursery two days ago, with lots of those for sale. It’s very Californian, and is one of the most drought-tolerant plants here, especially in the southern part of the state.
To be clear, I mean the Atriplex.
Prairie dock, a silphium species, is familiar in the Midwest, at least in those naturalist / native plant circles that know about swales! I have prairie dock in my yard.
Also, burdock is fairly well known, and is compounded from dock.
I knew burdock but didn’t know it was compounded from dock. The things you learn around here!
@Ryan: I knew that burdock contained bur-, but it never occurred to me that the second element was the same dock. The plants don’t seem very similar. The leaves are both pointed, but that’s about the only thing they seem to have in common.
The only dock I’ve heard of is, I think, curly dock (Rumex crispus), in some circulars about weed eradication.
The dock that I know from England is Rumex obtusifolius, which is often found growing alongside stinging nettles. According to folkloric homeopathy, squeezing a dock leaf and rubbing it on a sting will ease the pain. We would swear to the effectiveness of this remedy when I was growing up, but Wikipedia is skeptical.
I had no idea that docks were related to sorrels, or that they were edible.
Burdock, on the other hand, I know from the burdock and dandelion soft drink that is (somewhat) popular in the UK. It’s a bit like root beer, a concoction I had heard about from Peanuts but never seen until I came to the US.
in u.s. wild-foods worlds, dock is pretty well-known by that name as well as by “rumex”. “sorrel”, though, gets used for the whole array of edible rumexes and oxalises (the latter often as “wood sorrel”).* in my neighborhood, though, “sorrel” almost always means the spiced hibiscus drink (a/k/a jamaica, bissap, etc).
.
* it’s all shchav to me, personally, and i’ll eat any kind i can get.
According to folkloric homeopathy, squeezing a dock leaf and rubbing it on a sting will ease the pain. We would swear to the effectiveness of this remedy when I was growing up, …
Yes we had the same family folklore — I don’t think we knew of homeopathy at the time. I’ve always suspected it’s the rubbing with a soft leaf that distracts the nervous system, not any juice expressed. And yes, Dock is often found growing alongside.
New Zealand Stinging Nettle (Urtica Ferox) is an order of magnitude more ferocious; not likely to be found growing alongside anything to ameliorate the pain, and repeats on you for up to several days.
@Brett: Dock and burdock seem pretty similar to me:* common weeds with big pointed leaves growing profusely, initially in a rosette, later a stout flowering stem. Both bring the word “coarse” to me mind. The inflorescences and fruits are quite different, but “bur” takes care of that.
*Not similar to me, actually. To me they seem similar.
with plantain, the anti-itch effect (especially for mosquito bites) is definitely about the liquid. rubbing a leaf on the spot doesn’t do anything, while the ground/chewed (not in the city) leaf gives fairly reliable relief – which may be because of being pulpy and wet, or because of something specific to the plant.