LOUNAS.

I just ran across the Finnish word lounas, which means both ‘lunch’ and ‘southwest’ (this was in the context of the former dacha community Lounatjoki northwest of St. Petersburg, since 1948 called Zakhodskoe; there is some dispute over whether the name originally meant ‘southwest river’ or ‘lunch river,’ the argument for the latter being that workers ate meals there while they were building the railroad that was the community’s raison d’être). On a whim (the kind of whim that comes naturally to me) I looked up “southwest” in my Estonian dictionary to see what the sound correspondences looked like, and was mildly disappointed to see it was an entirely different word, edel. But wait: just above it, under the rubric “south,” was lõuna! I looked up “south” in the Finnish dictionary, and sure enough, it was etelä. It seemed odd that the two words would have exchanged senses; a little googling got me this passage from p. 216 of Basic Aspects of Language in Human Relations: Toward a General Theoretical Framework, by Harald Haarmann (Mouton de Gruyter, 1991):

The kind of “oscillation” in the meaning of basic terms which has been illustrated for the Lappish terminology finds its equivalent when comparing other Finno-Ugric languages. As an example, I refer here to contrasts in the corresponding Finnish and Estonian terminology: [Here he gives a table with the above words.] These and other variations are, as in the case of Lappish terms, a reflection of orientation according to weather conditions and the profile of the surrounding landscape, rather than an orientation in terms of the position of stars in the sky.

I thought that was interesting, so I’m passing it along. (The book sounds interesting; anybody know anything about Haarmann?)

Comments

  1. Sometimes cardinal directions are named astronomically (for example as sunrise / sunset / noon / midnight), and sometimes, meteorologically (by wind directions). In the latter case, 45 degree variations are not uncommon.
    For example in the Romance Mediterranean, Libeccio is a SW wind (<= from the direction of Libya / Africa i.e. also kind of South rather than SW).
    Sirocco is the South-Easterly wind but its name is derived from the Arabic word for “East”.
    Bora wind, related to Boreal “Northerly”, changes direction from coast to coast (it’s more like whatever blows from the nearby highlands into the sea). A similar but reversed situation is with Tramontane, literally a wind from across the mountains but used for Northerly winds.

  2. BTW the Pomors of the White Sea Coast, who had significant Finnic cultural influences, used Russian adjectives for Winter and Summer to designate the cardinal directions of North and South. AFAICT this pattern is not used in modern Finnish or Estonian. Does anyone know what is the origin of the Pomor usage, and how common it may be elsewhere in the world?

  3. Sorry for the continuing piecemiel spam 🙂 I was wondering how the Finnic people may have become accustomed to the wind notations if they weren’t grand old maritime nations, but I guess I got an answer.
    The huge lakes of the Karelo-Finnic heartland have very severe winds, and some local wind names persisted far beyond the lakes of their origin. For example Shelonnik (шелоник, шалонник) is named after the Shelon’ River in the SW corner of Lake Ilmen’. There, the SW wind used to endanger the the trade vessels of Novgorod merchants. The name survived for centures after the downfall of Great Novgorod in the language of, yes, the Pomors, where it continued to designate South-West.
    BTW the Pomor designation for South-East is … yes, literally Lunchtime (obednik). Here we go with another 45-degree shift from lounas “south or SW or lunchtime” – or SE as well.

  4. I would put my money on ‘south river’.
    /lounas/ (fin), /lõuna/ (est), /lounat/ (kar): ‘south’, ‘southwest’, ‘midday, ‘lunch’ (which happens to be the meal eaten while the sun is in the south!)
    /lun/ (udm), /lun/ (kom) ‘day’
    So the meaning ‘lunch’ has been derived from the ‘day’, ‘south’, ‘sun’ (which tend to overlap in many Finnougric languages). So no coincidental homonymy there.
    As for the village name: surprise, surprise: there runs a river through the village which goes by the name of Lounatjoki (at least back in the days when there were Finnish-speaking people there. As names of rivers tend to be older than names of settlements, as the river probably was there before the village, I guess the village was named after the river.
    Other toponyms in the area: Hunger swamp, Roach lake, Great forest swamp, just to give an idea of the geography and how well South river would fit in.
    Source: Suomen kielen etymologinen sanakirja, map of the Karelian Isthmus. I’m a linguist in Helsinki.

  5. the meaning ‘lunch’ has been derived from the ‘day’
    In Old English the word for lunch was also nonmete <= “noon”. And Russian “obed” (lunch) is etymologically just “a big meal”. There also exists a different Russian meal-time name, полдник poldnik “noontimer”, and resp. adjective полуденный may mean both “midday” and “southerly”. But of course in contemporary usage, Russian poldnik is just a light snack esp. for preschoolers, rather than lunch.

  6. I’m a linguist in Helsinki.
    Then I hereby declare your opinion valid!
    *bangs gavel*

  7. Trond Engen says

    Time of day as cardinal direction is straightforward. There are plenty of mountains and hills in Norway named Middagsåsen, Dugurdstind, Nonsknatten etc. Named for rheir use as a sundial cum meal-marker on some habitated spot.
    I think I’ve told before that in the valleys of Eastern Norway, the tradional system of directions had north up the valley. In some sidevalleys of sidevalleys, the sun rose in the west and set in the east, and the midday sun was due north.
    While I’m at it, I may also have told that I don’t think the roots of Norw. øse “empty of water” and øst “east” are accidental homonyms. I like to think the PIE word for east meant “unleashing”.

  8. Trond, about øse, I’m sure you know the River Ouse in northern England:

    The word ‘ouse’ is a very common name for rivers in England – it derives from the Celtic word ‘Usa’, from *udso-, which simply means ‘water’. ‘River Ouse’ therefore actually means ‘River Water’, etymologically.

    It has been suggested that the ‘Ouse’ was once all known as the ‘Ure’, but there seems to be no supporting evidence for this claim. In fact, more credence is given to the assertion that the name derives from the Old Celtic word for ‘Ure’, ‘Isara’, which over time evolved into ‘Isure’, ‘Isurium’, ‘Isis’ and finally the Saxon ‘Ouse’. This linguistic evolution also goes some way to explaining how the little tributary ‘Ouse Gill Beck’ which enters at Linton-on-Ouse usurps the name of the much larger river ‘Ure’.

  9. Another split in meaning can be seen in the pair sulane (est) – sulhanen (fin), meaning “farmhand” and “fiancé, groom”, respectively. I’m strongly reminded of the story of Jacob, Rachel, Laban and Leah.

  10. Harald Haarmann is an astonishingly prolific German linguist: he started out as a Romance specialist, writing books on Latin loanwords in Breton, Welsh and Albanian and compiling a wordlist of Cubanisms in the works of Fernando Ortiz, then married a Finn, after which he moved on to minor Uralic languages, wrote a very useful book on Uralic sociolinguistics together with his wife, a thick tome on the influence of Russian on Ingrian, a book on evidentiality as a Eurasian isogloss, and edited reprints of old Estonian grammars. Then in the late 70s (I think) he moved to Japan, and his purview became even wider: his latest publications are more general, and he’s recently written books on multilingualism, writing systems, extinct languages of the world, the Indoeuropeans, the history of numbers, the languages of the world (worth reading, though I’d say Ostler is more engaging), all aimed at a wider audience. I have no idea how he manages…

  11. Birdseeding says

    Hungarian – in common, it appears, with these other finno-ugric languages – has words for directions and times of day that are closely related:
    Dél (both noon and south)
    Észak (north) — éjszaka (night)
    Kelet (east) — napkelte (sunrise)
    Nyugat (west) — napnyugta (sunset)
    All forming a neat compass-to-day-cycle correlation. Since the sunrise-sunset thing is a fairly obv way of getting east and west, could the other directions somehow derive?

  12. This was probably obvious to everyone here, but just in case anyone missed it: in the Northern Hemisphere, the midday sun is to your south, so there’s a natural association “noon”=”south”. The further north you go, the more obvious this gets, but even France has its Midi region.
    Throughout North Africa, “south” is qiblī. Etymologically, this comes from qiblah – the direction of Mecca – even though Mecca is pretty much due east; but the Arabs who first reached north Africa came in from Palestine and the Hijaz, where Mecca is due south.

  13. Harald Haarmann is an astonishingly prolific German linguist
    Thanks for that comment; I’m glad to know about him!

  14. “The word ‘ouse’ is a very common name for rivers in England – it derives from the Celtic word ‘Usa’, from *udso-, which simply means ‘water’. ‘River Ouse’ therefore actually means ‘River Water’, etymologically.”
    Mongolian word for water is us ( pronounced as in ou too not as ah in we-us) too, just coincidence or some kind of connection?
    i know in Tatar it’s su(from Alsu – rose water how i have learnt that) and Japanese mizu with the zu sillable also seem like close sounding, all might be just coincidences of course or some very distant now language connections, i mean if Celtic is considered in the Finno-Ugric family, maybe it is not, then maybe it’s not surprising how come in the PIE territory of water- voda or aqua suddenly usa for water

  15. There also exists a different Russian meal-time name, полдник poldnik “noontimer”, and resp. adjective полуденный may mean both “midday” and “southerly”.

    Ужин” (supper) was originally a midday meal (< “юг“, south).
    Of note is also Pomor “пАyжна” – a meal after (“по-“) midday. Confusing w.r.t. modern usage of “ужин” as evening meal, since “паyжна” is now before “ужин“. (For example, Pisakhov: “Спал до вечера и паужну проспал. К ужину явился…”)
    And there’s corresponding wind too :), “пАужник” = SW.

  16. Read, I don’t know if there’s any connection, but it would be nice if there were. In English there’s also ooze (to seep liquid). There is a Scottish word oos, but it means dust bunnies, the fluff under the bed (wool is oo to a Scotsperson, apparently).

  17. “Ужин” (supper) was originally a midday meal (
    Interestingly, Russian “poldnik” (midday meal/snack) corresponds to Spanish
    merienda / Tagalog meryenda / Croatian marenda, which is usually considered to be a cognate to “merit” (a meal well deserved, so to say), but not to “meridian” (middle of the day / noon / Southerly direction).
    Wouldn’t one expect a merienda / meridian connection instead?

  18. silly syllable
    wool is noos (pronounced nohs, not like in ooze which is nevchikh) so it seems different, celtic wiki says is from proto-celtic which is a branch of PIE, not finno-ugric/uralic
    but ys is hair/fur, pretty close sounding to oos, but it’s more like umlaut, so

  19. It’s the mi- part that means “water”, not the -zu.
    港 minato = mi-na-to “water’s door”, or simply “harbour/port”
    汀 migiwa = mi-kiwa “water’s edge”
    源 minamoto = mi-na-moto “water’s source”, “fountainhead”
    水底 minasoko = mi-na-soko “water’s bottom”
    水上 minakami = mi-na-kami “water’s top”, ie “the upper reaches (of a river)”
    水面 minamo = mi-na-mo “water’s surface”

  20. what about it’s sui pronunciation then?

  21. sui is an adaptation of the Chinese shuĭ.

  22. ah, onyomi, fine, sinitic languages are surely completely by themselves, and japanese have more direct borrowings from chinese than any that , core but distant connections to uralo- altaic languages, ok

  23. Trond Engen says

    AJP: I’m sure you know the River Ouse in northern England
    Yes. *ud- of *udsa seems to be the oblique stem of the root *wed-/wod- known from ‘water’. Germanic regularized the paradigm after the nominative, but the oblique stem is preserved in otter &lt *ud-r-ó- (says B&L).
    Norw. øse and øst are monophtongized forms, probably from Danish but also regular in some areas along the Swedish border, so I would have been wiser to write ause and aust. Still, Ouse is unrelated. since *aus- &lt PIE *h2ews-. This diphtong corresponds to Eng. ea- as in east. An English cognate of ause would look exactly like ease, and the semantics is a decent fit too, but it’s unfortunately from French.

  24. marie-lucie says

    Dmitry: Spanish merienda (hence Tagalog);
    Without more information, I think that it is quite possible that Spanish merienda rather than something like meridiana is due to a folk-etymological reformation, since the initial mer… suggested mérito and merecer while the rest of meridiana had no obvious meaning to ordinary people (even if it was used in scientific contexts, those contexts would be too different from that of meals).
    About the times of meals: In both French and English the words for meals taken during the day (noon and evening) have shifted from their earlier, apparently because of social mores. As the idle rich went to bed later and later (after going to plays, gambling, etc) and consequently got up later and later, the first meal (French le déjeuner, literally ‘to unfast’), ended up referring to the noon meal, and the former noon meal le dîner was taken in the early evening. English kept breakfast as the morning meal taken by all social classes, but dinner (from French) moved later and later (Christmas dinner in the early afternoon is a survival). French le souper which used to be a light evening meal was borrowed as English supper which may or may not be the equivalent of dinner (if you are invited for dinner when away from home, you should always ask what time you should arrive, or you might be much too early or much too late). In French le dîner is considered more elevated than le souper which is more a family term if used for early evening: you could go to a restaurant for dîner at the normal time for this meal but not for souper unless you wanted a light meal after the theatre, for instance, or a midnight meal on New Year’s Eve. (This is the usage in France, other countries might have different usages).

  25. Trond Engen says

    uwe: “Ужин” (supper) was originally a midday meal (
    Also Norw.
    middag “high noon” is eaten (by most people nowadays) in late afternoon or early evening, traditionally the big meal after daddy’s home from work. I was going to ask if this is a universal, but…
    M-L: About the times of meals: In both French and English the words for meals taken during the day (noon and evening) have shifted from their earlier, apparently because of social mores.
    Similar to French, Danish frokost means “lunch” while “breakfast” is morgenmad.

  26. marie-lucie says

    the words for meals taken during the day (noon and evening) have shifted from their earlier, apparently because of social mores.
    Oops, in editing this sentence I forgot the word “meaning” after “earlier”.
    I will add that after le déjeuner switched from the meaning ‘breakfast’ to that of ‘lunch’, there was no longer a word for the early meal, which was now referred to as le petit déjeuner ‘the little breakfast’, which, unlike the morning meal in the English tradition, is not a full meal but more of a snack, and consequently, the noon meal is a full meal, often the main meal of the day. (This is changing to a certain extent as working people take/are given less time to eat at noon in exchange for quitting earlier).

  27. marie-lucie says

    Lameen: in the Northern Hemisphere, the midday sun is to your south, so there’s a natural association “noon”=”south”. The further north you go, the more obvious this gets, but even France has its Midi region.
    France is not the only place: Italy has its Mezzogiorno, transparently ‘Mid-Day’. Occitan (surviving in the French Midi area) has (in the very conservative official spelling) Miègjorn, also ‘Mid-Day’. I am not sure what the official pronunciation is, but I think my grandparents would have said [myedzún].
    I am told that le Midi, which used to refer to the Southern half or at least third of France, is now only used for the Mediterranean area, while the rest of the region is le Sud. I think this may be another anglicism, since le Midi cannot be translated into English except as “the South”, retranslated as le Sud.

  28. I think that it is quite possible that Spanish merienda rather than something like meridiana is due to a folk-etymological reformation, since the initial mer… suggested mérito and merecer while the rest of meridiana had no obvious meaning to ordinary people (even if it was used in scientific contexts, those contexts would be too different from that of meals)
    It may be similar with Russian uzhin dinner which has origin rooted in science-usage and Old Slavonic … and is readily lending itself to a folk etymology linking it with the root uz/uzh “narrow”.
    Meal-names tend to have late-shifts in all societies, which is why I mentioned Tagalog as a curious example of meryenda shifting to an earlier part of a day (and it could be a brunch equivalent now).
    The Russian word for breakfast, zavtrak <= utro “morning” remained a morning meal … I guess it’s easier for morning meals to resist the upper-class schedule-drift pressures? Although if you let your day schedule shift *really* late, then breakfast is also trapped in the shifts. Like at dance festivals we attend, there is a perennial pressure to have breakfast served *early*, like at 4 or 5 in the morning, which is when people begin going to bed at last 🙂

  29. marie-lucie says

    Tagalog as a curious example of meryenda shifting to an earlier part of a day
    Interesting. It could be that the word for a Spanish-style meal shifted to a different, more traditionally Philippine type of meal, served earlier.
    In one native Canadian community I am familiar with, the English word “lunch” does not mean only a midday meal but any type of informal meal, not one just cooked: for instance food carried in a “lunchbox” to eat on the job, a late night snack, etc. The crucial feature is not the timing of eating but the type of food and the informality.

  30. >Marie-lucie
    According to my Latin dictionary, “merienda” came from Latin “merenda”, a word that classical authors didn’t use. It’s related to Latin “mereo” (but finally from Greek “meiromai”: I obtain in the share-out), that means to win, to deserve. Our verb “merecer” is related to common Latin “merescere”, also from” mereo, ere”.
    The Latin verb “merendo” is to eat at midday or in the afternoon.
    On the other hand, our “meridiana” came from “meridianus”, related to “meridies” [medius, dies].

  31. BTW the 2005 Pomor dictinary is in the news again, since it won a foreign grant of $4,000, which potentially qualifies its creation, under the current Russian law, as an act of treason.
    The author, Igor Moiseev, chairs the Pomor Institute of Indigenous Northern Peoples of the Artic University. He used to espouse Pomor separatist views, although he must have mellowed more recently. Moiseev is presently being sued for extremism / fomentic ethnic strife but this has ostensibly nothing to do with his old publications. Instead, he’s alleged to have called the local non-Pomor Russians “быдло” in an anonymous blog comment traced to his computer.
    An investigation of treason (which would be a more harsh charge) might be motivated by the authorities’ need to justify eavesdropping of Moiseev’s phone.

  32. J.W. Brewer says

    There can be drifts the other way, i.e. “noon” comes from “none” (= the 9th hour of the day = approx 3 pm). I believe the sorta-cognate (loan from Latin in both instances) word in Icelandic still means mid-afternoon. I assume one source of drift here is efficiency-minded medieval monasteries combining several of the appointed daily services into one and knocking them out earlier than their officially-appointed times of day so that they could get back to doing whatever it was they placed a higher priority on than worship.

  33. marie-lucie says

    Gracias Jesús! I withdraw my comment, which was a hypothesis.
    If merienda has to do with “win, deserve”, perhaps it referred to a midday meal or a pause for eating given to the workers on an estate, in a workshop, etc. After a morning working hard, they would “deserve a break” and some food before resuming their work. Food would only be given to the “deserving”, so had to be “merited”.

  34. Nones is indeed the ninth hour (that is, halfway from mid-day to sunset) taken as a moment in time. But taken as a period of time, it extends from the sixth hour (mid-day) to the ninth hour; it was the former that got the name of noon.

  35. >Marie-lucie
    I agree with you as far “deserve”. On this matter I tell you an anecdote: a farmer and employer I knew said, speaking of his pickers of olives: “they even eat ham when they have a “merienda”!” However, the ham has been bought by them.
    About the time of “merienda”: building workers, country people, etc. at 10 or 11 (someone even says “tomar las 11”); children at 18 or 19.
    There is other nice word: “almuerzo”. It came from Arabic “al” and Latin “morsus”: the bite. Also it can mean a meal in the morning (breakfast or “merienda”) or a meal at 14 or 15 h.

  36. marie-lucie says

    Some English people have a snack (?) called “elevenses” around 11, but I don’t know what they have at that time.
    In the area where I grew up, rural people, especially the men, would get up very early (before 6 am) and just have a cup of coffee and perhaps a little bread and butter, go tend the animals and work outside until around 10, then come back to the house where the women would prepare a fast-cooked meal more similar to a traditional English breakfast than a French one (with eggs, cold cuts, etc). They called this meal une collation, a word which can otherwise be used of a substantial snack. In some regions this is the word used of the snack given to children when they come home from school, but the more general word for what children have at that time is le goûter.

  37. It’s similar in rural Northern Germany where I grew up – farmers would get up very early (5 or 6 AM), and between breakfast and lunch they’d have a meal consisting of tea, bread, butter, cold cuts etc., between 9 and 10 AM. The term I know for this is zweites Frühstück “second breakfast”.

  38. Spanish (like other languages) has a similar word: “colación”, but hardly anyone uses it because the meanings related are:
    – light meal eaten at night to break one’s fast,
    -sweet things or cold meals to present a guest.
    Also we have “refacción” and “refección”: refection, snack, and “tentempié” ( as French “en-cas”; more o less “tenir debout”). There is only a short step from it to “tapa”.

  39. Trond Engen says

    More or less the same thing all over rural Europe, I suppose. At least it was in the Shire.

  40. Collation in English means a light meal, often served to guests: it can be hot or cold. The word is not used much any more, at least in the U.S.
    Elevenses is a set of refreshments with tea or coffee.

  41. J.W. Brewer says

    I became aware of “elevenses” at the age of say 9 or 10 because Paddington was always having elevenses with Mr. Gruber. I’ve never come across the noun in that sense elsewhere, so I infer from context that you can’t call a meal/snack “elevenses” unless a bear is somehow involved.

  42. marie-lucie says

    For fans of (mostly) English meals through the ages:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20243692
    (I don’t know how to link directly).

  43. Thanks, m-l. here is the bbc link, and from there I discovered the concept of “National Wheatmeal Bread” (which apparently lasted in the UK from May 24th 1942 and into … 1956!). The Natl Bread was sort of a first, and flawed, incarnation of today’s popular wholegrain / multigrain breads (even though the name was “wheatmeal”, the British rationing authorities quickly moved to allow added barley and oat). I could only compare with the famed verse of Olga Berggoltz about rationed bread – the “125 Blockade grams” – which, as she puts it, consisted from as much blood and fire as flour.
    Another surprising discovery for me was that bleach in the low-gluten flour was not only supposed to make the dough whiter, but also firmer (by artificially oxidizing gluten and making chemical disulfide bond cross-links between gluten molecules). Despite my stint in protein chemistry, I never heard about this incredibly yucky-sounding cheat before. Potassium bromate, a class 2B carcinogen, is still allowed as gluten-oxidizer in the US (although supposedly in smaller concentrations to make sure that it decays more or less completely during baking). Life to learn!

  44. J.W. Brewer says

    The BBC link is hyping an apparently new series featuring Clarissa Dickson Wright, who is the surviving featured member of the excellent Two Fat Ladies cookery tv series (which alas ended with the death of the other Fat Lady, Jennifer Paterson, in 1999).

  45. That leads to my dad’s claim that when he was in Japan in 1940, he passed the city (town?) of Usa, whose utility was that things manufactured there could be stamped MADE IN USA for export.
    My dad was a raconteur, so I’ve never been sure how much to credit this story.

  46. Thanks. Well, at least there is such a place, which means my father isn’t discredited totally: he never claimed it had been renamed. So unlike David Crystal’s claim to be addressed with singular y’all when he entered a Texas store as the customer fifty years ago, frinstance.

  47. Ooops. For “to be addressed” read “to have been addressed”, of course.

  48. David Eddyshaw says

    Lameen recently posted on the names of the cardinal directions in Northern Songhay:

    https://lughat.blogspot.com/2021/10/cardinal-points-in-northern-songhay.html

    North, East, South and West in Kusaal translate respectively as “Bisa Country, Behind, Hills, In Front.”
    The Bible translators, presumably feeling that this did not carry over too well to Palestine or the Roman Empire, used “Your Right” for “North” and “Your Left” for “South.” (Opposite to Welsh …)

  49. According to Wiktionary’s compass diagrams, Finnish and Estonian have, besides east/west/north/south, words for *all four* of northeast, southeast, southwest, and northwest that are independent words, not compounds. (Germanic languages seem so boring by comparison!) And they’re almost all of unknown origin, to boot. Is that right, are these really all normal, non-obscure words?

    Estonian: kirre=NE, kagu=SE, edel=SW, loe=NW
    Finnish: koillinen=NE, kaakko=SE, lounas=SW, luode=NW

    The word for north in Finnic languages also means bottom or base, no one seems to know why.

  50. January First-of-May says

    The Bible translators, presumably feeling that this did not carry over too well to Palestine or the Roman Empire

    Mount Zaphon worked well enough for the Jews, but AFAIK by the time non-Palestine areas got relevant the reference was already sufficiently bleached that it didn’t matter.

  51. kagu/kaakko

    Tõenäoliselt sama tüvi mis sõnas kakerdama. Mitmesugustes linnunimetustes esinenud tüvi võib olla hakanud märkima ilmakaart rändlindude liikumissuuna alusel.

    http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=kagu&F=M&C06=et

    GT
    Probably the same strain as the word crave. The strain in various bird names may have started to show a weather map based on the direction of movement of migratory birds.

    DL
    Probably the same root as in the word cock. A strain found in a variety of bird names may have come to denote a weather map based on the direction of movement of migratory birds.

    tüvi: ‘stem/root (of a word)’
    ilmakaar: ‘compass point’ (not a ‘weather map’)
    kakerdama: ‘cackle’ (of a hen, etc)

    From Nykysuomen etymologinen sanakirja:
    The word is etymologically linked to the bird name kaakkuri, which could traditionally have meant both red divers/loons (kaakkuri) and the other divers/loons (kuikka), and has commonly appeared in the form kaakko/kaakkolintu as well. As the name of the compass point that migratory birds come from.

  52. kirre/koillinen

    Tundmatu päritoluga tüvi.

    http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=kirre&F=M&C06=et

    GT, DL
    Strain of unknown origin

    Strain strikes again!

    Sanan alkuperä
    Koillinen tarkoittaa sellaista, jolla on koi. Koi merkitsee tässä tapauksessa aamunkoita eli auringon sarastusta. Pohjimmiltaan sana merkitsee jonkin (tässä tapauksessa auringon) näkymistä vain heikosti, häämöttämistä tai kajastusta. Koillinen on siis saanut nimensä siitä, että sillä suunnalla taivaanrannalla alkaa päivä sarastaa. Koillisen vanhoja nimityksiä ovat myös koi, kojo ja koja.

    Koi-sanan alkuperä on suomalais-ugrilaisissa kielissä. Koi-sanasta johdettu koittaa-verbi merkitsee aamun valkenemista eli koin voimistumista, sittemmin kuvaannollisesti jonkin, kuten päivän tai aikakauden, alkua. Kieliopillisesti siis sanoilla aamunkoi ja aamunkoitto voidaan nähdä hieman erilainen merkitys, sillä aamunkoi tarkoittaa auringon häämötystä, siis tilaa, ja aamunkoitto aamun valkenemista, siis tapahtumaa. Yleensä tätä erotusta ei kuitenkaan tehdä.

    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koillinen

    GT
    The origin of the word
    Northeast means one who has a moth. Koi in this case means mornings, i.e. the dawn of the sun.
    Basically, a word means only a faint, looming, or reflection of something (in this case, the sun). The Northeast has thus got its name from the fact that in that direction on the horizon the day begins to dawn.
    The old designations of the Northeast also include koi, kojo and koja.

    The origin of the word Koi is in Finno-Ugric languages. The verb try, derived from the word koi, means the whitening of the morning, i.e. the intensification of the koi, then figuratively the beginning of something, such as a day or an era. Grammatically, therefore, the words dawn and dawn can be seen with a slightly different meaning, for dawn means the eclipse of the sun, that is, space, and dawn means the whitening of the morning, that is, the event. Usually, however, this distinction is not made.

    DL
    The origin of the word
    Northeast means one who has a moth. Koi in this case means mornings, i.e. the dawn of the sun.
    In essence, the word means the faint, fading or reflection of something (in this case the sun). The north-east is thus named because it is in that direction that the day begins to dawn on the horizon.
    Other old names from the Northeast include koi, kojo and koja.

    The word koi has its origins in the Finno-Ugric languages. The verb koit, derived from the word koi, means the dawning of the morning, i.e. the dawning of the koi, and later figuratively the beginning of something, such as a day or an era. Grammatically, therefore, the words dawn and dawn can be seen as having slightly different meanings, as dawn means the dawning of the sun, i.e. a state, and dawn means the dawning of the morning, i.e. an event. Usually, however, this distinction is not made.

    moth: ‘dawn (archaic)’ These are homonyms in Finnish.
    try/koit: GT confuses koittaa ‘to break, to dawn (of a day); to begin (of a season, an era); (colloq.) koettaa‘ and koettaa ‘to feel, to touch; to try, to test, to check; to try, to to attempt (+infinitive)’
    the words dawn and dawn: aamunkoi and aamunkoitto

  53. loe/luode

    loe : loode : loet ‘põhja ja lääne vaheline ilmakaar’

    Võib olla läänemeresoome tuletis. Ilmakaart tähistava sõna esialgne tähendus on võinud olla ‘päikese loojumise ilmakaar’ ja see võiks olla tuletatud langemist, loojumist, heitmist jms tähistavast tegusõnast, mille kohta teateid ei ole, kuid sama tüvi võib olla sõnas looma või näiteks soome sõnas luo ‘juurde’. Teisalt on arvatud, et sama tüvi mis sõnas looded. Tõusev, üleujutusi põhjustav meri on läänemeresoomlaste asustusalast edelas või läänes ja sellest on saadud ilmakaarte tähendused. Eesti või liivi keelest on laenatud läti mrd luodes (vējš) ‘loodetuul’. Vt ka looja.

    http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=loe&F=M&C06=et

    GT
    read: northwest: read ‘north-west arc’

    May be a derivative of Baltic Finland. The original meaning of the word “weather map” could have been “the weather arc of sunset” and could have been derived from a verb meaning fall, sunset, emission, etc., for which there are no reports, but the same stem could be in the word animal or in the Finnish word luo. On the other hand, it is believed that the same strain as said tides. The rising, flood-causing sea is southwest or west of the settlement area of ​​the Baltic Finns, and the meanings of the weather maps have been derived from it. From the Estonian or Livonian language, the ‘northwest wind’ has been borrowed from the Latvian billion northwest (vējš). See also Creator.

    DL
    read : north-west : read ‘hemisphere between north and west’

    It may be a derivation of West-Meresoome. The original meaning of the word for ‘weather map’ may have been ‘the weather of the setting of the sun’, and it could have been derived from a verb meaning ‘to fall’, ‘to set’, ‘to throw’, etc., for which there is no record, but the same root could be found in the word for ‘animal’ or, for example, in the Finnish word luo ‘to’. On the other hand, it has been suggested that it is the same root as in the word looded. The rising, flood-causing sea is to the southwest or west of the settlement area of the West Meromans, and from it the meanings of the weather maps have been derived. The Latvian mrd luodes (vējš) ‘tidal wind’ is borrowed from Estonian or Livonian. See also looja.

    read: Confusion of our loe with lugema (see the conjugation table)

    Sanan alkuperä
    Sana luode juontuu mahdollisesti sanasta luoda. Luominen tarkoittaa myös alas laskemista. Luode olisi tarkoittanut näin alun perin suuntaa, jonne aurinko laskee.

    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luode_(ilmansuunta)

    GT
    The origin of the word
    The word northwest is possibly derived from the word create. Creating also means putting down. The northwest would thus have originally meant the direction in which the sun is setting.

    DL
    Origin of the word
    The word ‘luode’ is possibly derived from the word ‘to create’. To create also means to put down. Thus, originally, the word ‘lode’ would have meant the direction in which the sun sets.

  54. edel/lounas/etelä

    edel : edela : edelat ‘lõuna ja lääne vaheline ilmakaar’

    http://www.eki.ee/dict/ety/index.cgi?Q=edel&F=M&C06=et

    GT
    southwest: southwest: southwest ‘south-west arc’

    DL
    south-southwest : south-west : south-west ‘hemisphere between south and west’

    Sanan alkuperä
    Lounas tarkoittaa ilmansuunnan lisäksi vuorokaudenkiertoon kuuluvaa vakituista ateriaa, joka on päivällä. Myös ilmansuunnan nimenä lounas viittaa päivään. Suomen sana lounas on sukua viron kielen sanalle lõuna, joka tarkoittaa etelää, lounas-ateriaa sekä keskipäivää.

    GT
    The origin of the word
    Lunch means, in addition to the direction of the air, a regular meal that is part of the daily cycle and is during the day. As the name of the direction of the air, lunch also refers to the day. The Finnish word lunch is related to the Estonian word lõuna, which means south, lunch and noon.

    DL
    Origin of the word
    Lunch refers to a regular meal that is part of the circadian cycle, in addition to the weather, and is served during the day. As a name for the direction of the compass, lunch also refers to the day. The Finnish word lounas is related to the Estonian word lõuna, which means south, lunch and noon.

    lunch: See upthread

    Sanan alkuperä
    Sana etelä voi olla johdos kantasanasta esi, jolloin etelä tarkoittaisi suuntaa, joka on esimerkiksi asumuksen tai maankohouman etupuolella, eli lämpimällä ja valoisalla puolella, minne aurinko keskipäivällä paistaa. Eteinen on saanut nimensä siitä, että se tehdään talon tai kodan etu- eli eteläpuolelle. Etelä voi olla myös johdos kantasanasta etä, jolloin etelä olisi merkinnyt alun perin jotakuinkin samaa kuin etäinen suunta.

    Muinaissuomalaiset uskoivat Lintukodon sijaitsevan äärimmäisessä etelässä. Kaukana etelässä oli käsitysten mukaan hyvin kuuma, ja taivaankansi niin lähellä, että kaikki sen alla kutistui.

    Suomen sana etelä on sukua viron kielen sanalle edel, joka tarkoittaa lounas-ilmansuuntaa.

    etelä

    GT
    The origin of the word
    The word south can be derived from the root word ancestor, in which case south would mean a direction that is in front of, for example, a dwelling or a protrusion, that is, on the warm and bright side where the sun shines at noon. The vestibule got its name from the fact that it is made on the front or south side of the house or castle. The south may also be a derivative of the root word far, in which case the south would have originally meant something about the same as the distant direction.

    The ancient Finns believed that the Bird House was located in the extreme south. The far south was thought to be very hot, and the sky cover so close that everything beneath it shrank.

    The Finnish word south is related to the Estonian word edel, which means southwest.

    DL
    Origin of the word
    The word south may be derived from the root word esi, in which case south would mean the direction that is, for example, the front of a settlement or mound of land, i.e. the warm and bright side where the sun shines at noon. The porch takes its name from the fact that it is made on the front or south side of the house or cottage. South may also be a derivative of the root word for ‘distant’, in which case south would have originally meant something like ‘distant’.

    The ancient Finns believed that Lintukoto was located in the extreme south. The far south was believed to be very hot, and the firmament so close that everything beneath it shrank.

    The Finnish word etelä is related to the Estonian word edel, which means south-west.

    lintukoto
    Finnish
    Etymology
    lintu +‎ koto, “home of birds”

    Noun
    lintukoto

    1. (Finnish mythology) A paradise-like place where birds migrate every winter; because it was located near the edge of the sky dome, the sky was very close to the ground and therefore its inhabitants were dwarfs.
    2. (figuratively) A place like a paradise.
    Usage notes
    In its modern usage lintukoto usually refers to Finland (or a place in Finland), and the phrase Suomi ei ole lintukoto (“Finland is not a safe country”) is often heard in political contexts.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lintukoto

  55. luode 2

    Kysymys: Suomen kielen luode tarkoittaa sekä lännen ja pohjoisen välistä ilmansuuntaa että laskuvettä. Miksi?

    Vastaus: Siksi, että kyseessä on kaksi eri sanaa, jotka ovat luultavasti eri alkuperää. Ne ovat vain sattumalta samannäköisiä.

    Ilmansuuntaa tarkoittavan luoteen alkuperä on epäselvä. On ehdotettu, että se voisi olla johdos joko luoda-verbistä tai läheisyyttä merkitsevästä luo-vartalosta. Vielä epävarmempi on selitys, jonka mukaan molemmat luoteet kuuluisivat sittenkin etymologisesti yhteen.

    Laskuvettä merkitsevä luode on puolestaan vanha germaaninen lainasana. Vanhaa lähtökohtaa edustavat nykykielissä esimerkiksi nykysaksan Flut ja ruotsin flod, jotka merkitsevät molemmat muun muassa tulvaa. Myös suomen vanhassa kirjakielessä luoteella tarkoitetaan nimenomaan tulvaa tai vedenpaisumusta, ja suomen murteissa jään päälle noussutta vettä tai nousuvettä. Kirjakielinen päinvastainen merkitys on myöhäinen ja oppitekoinen, ja se on voinut syntyä sekaannuksesta.

    GT
    Question: The northwest of the Finnish language means both the direction of the air between the west and the north and the low tide. Why?

    Answer: Because these are two different words that are probably of different origins. They just happen to be similar.

    The origin of the northwestern direction is unclear. It has been suggested that it could be derived from either the verb create or the creature body signifying intimacy. Even more uncertain is the explanation that the two tides would still belong etymologically together.

    The low tide sign, in turn, is an old Germanic loanword. The old starting point is represented in modern languages ​​by, for example, the modern German Flut and the Swedish flod, both of which mean floods, among other things. Also in the old Finnish literary language, northwestern means specifically a flood or flood, and in Finnish dialects, water or rising water that has risen on ice. The opposite meaning of literary language is late and doctrinal, and may have arisen from confusion.

    DL
    Q: The Finnish word luode means both the direction of the air between west and north and the direction of the tide. Why?

    A: Because they are two different words, probably of different origins. They just happen to look alike.

    The origin of north-west, meaning the direction of the air, is unclear. It has been suggested that it could be a derivative of either the verb to create or the verb luo, meaning proximity. Even more uncertain is the explanation that the two natures belong together etymologically after all.

    The word luode, meaning low tide, is an old Germanic loanword. In modern languages, the old starting point is represented, for example, by Flut in modern German and flod in Swedish, both of which mean, among other things, flood. Also in the old written language of Finnish, luode refers specifically to a flood or a surge of water, and in the Finnish dialects to water rising on ice or high tide. The literary opposite meaning is late and learned, and may have arisen from confusion.

  56. koillinen 2

    Koillinen
    Kysymys: Mistä ilmansuunnan nimi koillinen mahtaa olla peräisin?

    Vastaus: Sana koillinen (’pohjoisen ja idän välinen ilmansuunta’) ei ole ollut vanhastaan murteissa kovin yleinen. Itämurteissa on joitakin tietoja siitä, että sana tarkoittaa myös itää, mikä merkitys on karjalan kielessä yksinomainen. Se, että koillinen on nykyisessä yleiskielessä nimenomaan idän ja pohjoisen välinen ilmansuunta, on 1800-luvun tietoisen kielen kehittämisen tulosta.

    Sanan alkuperästä saa vihjeen lukemalla Suomen murteiden sanakirjaa: koillisen synonyymina on kirjattu itämurteinen sana kesäpäivännousu. Aurinko nousee kesäisin koillisesta, eli silloin päivä koittaa koillisesta. Sekä koillinen että koittaa ovat johdoksia päivän sarastusta ja itääkin tarkoittavasta sanasta koi (joka on aivan eri sana kuin hyönteistä tarkoittava koi). Molemmilla koi-sanoilla on vastineita kaukaisissa sukukielissä, joten molemmat sanat kuuluvat ikivanhaan perintösanastoomme.

    https://www.kotus.fi/nyt/kysymyksia_ja_vastauksia/sanojen_alkuperasta/koillinen

    GT
    Northeast
    Question: Where did the name of the northeast come from?

    Answer: The word Northeast (‘North-East Orientation’) has not been very common in dialects since ancient times. There is some information in the Eastern dialects that the word also means east, which meaning is exclusive in the Karelian language. The fact that the Northeast in the present general language is specifically the Orientation between East and North is the result of the development of conscious language in the 19th century.

    You can get a clue as to the origin of the word by reading the dictionary of Finnish dialects: the eastern dialect word summer sunrise is synonymous with the northeast. In summer, the sun rises from the northeast, which is when the day comes from the northeast. Both the Northeast and the Dawn are derived from the dawn of the day and the word koi (which is a completely different word from the koi meaning insects). Both koi words have equivalents in distant family languages, so both words belong to our ancient hereditary vocabulary.

    DL
    North East
    Q: Where does the name Northeast come from?

    Answer. There is some evidence in Eastern dialects that the word also means east, which is an exclusive meaning in Karelian. The fact that the north-east is the specific direction between east and north in today’s common language is the result of the conscious development of language in the 19th century.

    A clue to the origin of the word can be found in the Dictionary of Finnish Dialects, which records the Eastern dialect word summer solstice as a synonym for north-eastern. In summer, the sun rises from the north-east, which means that the day dawns from the north-east. Both north-east and dawn are derivatives of the word koi (which is a completely different word from moth, meaning insect), which means both dawn and east. Both koi words have counterparts in distant ancestral languages, so both words are part of our ancient heritage vocabulary.

  57. Thanks for all that! It’s certainly interesting comparing the translations.

  58. Germanic languages seem so boring by comparison!

    This Italianate patois was used to designate the names of the principal winds on the compass rose found in mariners’ compasses and portolan charts of the 14th and 15th centuries. The “traditional” names of the eight principal winds are:

    (N) – Tramontana
    (NE) – Greco (or Bora in some Venetian sources)
    (E) – Levante (sometimes Oriente)
    (SE) – Scirocco (or Exaloc in Catalan)
    (S) – Ostro (or Mezzogiorno in Venetian)
    (SW) – Libeccio (or Garbino, Eissalot in Provençal)
    (W) – Ponente (or Zephyrus in Greek)
    (NW) – Maestro (or Mistral in Provençal)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_the_compass#Traditional_Mediterranean_compass_points

    (a little downpage)

    艮 gěn northeast 45°
    巽 xùn southeast 135°
    坤 kūn southwest 225°
    乾 qián northwest 315°

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Points_of_the_compass#Chinese_compass_points

  59. Maestro (or Mistral in Provençal)

    Huh, if I knew that mistral was ‘master-wind’ I’d forgotten. OED (updated June 2002):

    Etymology: < French mistral (1625), †maestral (1606), †maistral (1552 in Middle French), †mestral (1544 in Middle French) wind from the north-west, also in sense ‘the north-west’ (c1525) < Old Occitan maestral the north-west (end of the 15th cent.), maistral mistral (1508; Occitan maiestrau, maïstrau, mistrau, mistral) < classical Latin magistrālis magistral n. In spite of the earliest attested senses in Middle French and Old Occitan, the underlying sense is usually taken to be ‘master-wind’ and hence ‘wind blowing from the north-west’ (the mistral); compare Catalan mestral wind from the north-west (1375), Spanish maestral wind from the north-west (1495), Italian maestrale maestrale n. Compare also Old Occitan maistre, maestre wind from the north-west (13th cent.), Catalan maestre, mestre wind from the north-west (c1300), Old French maistre the north-west (c1305; see master n.¹), Italian maestro maestro n. 2.

  60. Thanks juha! I get the impression that those Mediterranean and Chinese directions are historical, whereas the Finnish and Estonian ones are current: that is, linguee.com pulls a lot of examples from eur-lex.europa.eu where they’re used in bureaucratic contexts, e.g. Kagu-Aasia ‘Southeast Asia’ or Türgi kaguosas elavate kurdide ‘Kurds in southeast Turkey’, where the Italian uses sud-est or sudorientale, not scirocco.

  61. David Marjanović says

    Huh, the Chinese compass points for N, S, E, W are/were not the usual words/characters for those directions. The whole system seems completely unrelated.

  62. Is that right, are these really all normal, non-obscure words?

    So indeed, terms like Luoteisväylä ‘Northwest Passage’ or Kaakkois-Aasia ‘Southeast Asia’ are easily found in regular use. juha scoured up the etymologies for these already; though I will mention that our titular lounas has a further interesting proposed link as coming from PIE “shining”, *lo/ewksnós. The /o/ is probably not a retention but rather, the extinct Baltic variety that Finnic got most its loans from seems to have had a rounded realization of /au/ which then fairly regularly ends up as Finnic /ou/. The meaning as ‘day’, on the other hand, looks more archaic.

    The word for north in Finnic languages also means bottom or base, no one seems to know why

    The standard explanation is the inverse of the one for *etelä: if the home’s entrance faces south, then clearly its back / “bottom” end will end up facing north. A newer analogy with the same is Fi. Peräpohjola ‘northernmost Ostrobotnia’ (after the 1938 provincial reorganization, southern parts of today’s Lappi region; not perceived as a part of Lapland before this), from perä ‘back, rear’ + Pohjola ‘Northland(s)’.

  63. are these really all normal, non-obscure words?

    It should be added that storm alerts and weather reports in general are, for obvious reasons, drenched in them:

    Kovan tuulen varoitus:
    Pohjois-Itämeri, Ahvenanmeri ja Selkämeren eteläosa
    Luoteistuulta huomenna 16 m/s.

    Saaristomeri
    Lounaistuulta 14 m/s.

    Suomessa oleva heikko korkeapaineen selänne liikkuu itään. Keski-Norjan rannikolla oleva matalapaine liikkuu kaakkoon kohti Lounais-Suomea.

    (The page is regularly updated.)

    https://www.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/saatiedotus-merenkulkijoille?map=1

  64. : if the home’s entrance faces south, then clearly its back / “bottom” end will end up facing north

    As in the classic description of a Newfoundland shed:

    “With her arse to the woodpile, she faces out to sea”

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