Tartessian.

I think Tarthessos is mentioned in the Bible.

“The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts. Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. ” Psalms 72:10-11

Biblical Tarshish also came to my mind. I remember it as Jonah’s intended destination, which some have speculated to be somewhere in Spain. But looking up Tarshish, I see that there are several competing hypotheses on its identification, including Sardinia.

As to Tarshish, I don’t know if and how those favoring Tarthessos explain the θ:ʃ correspondence.

“Aristides the Locrian being bit by a Tartesian Weezel, and dying, said, That it would have pleased him much better to have died by the biting of a Lion or Leopard, (since he must have died by something) then by such a Beast. He brooked in my opinion the ignomy of the biting much worse then the death it self.” (c) Claudius Aelianus “Various History”

Other translations say that the philosopher was bitten by Tartessian cat, not “Weezel”.

Tartessos – city of monster-cats!

Maybe “Tartessos” and “Tarshish” might both reflect something like /tʃ/ cf. “Tissaphernes” for Cithrafarna.

Old Persian cuneiform uses a similar system. There are three vowel letters a i u which represent both long and short phonemes (but short a is often elided after a consonant, long a never) and 13 consonant letters x c ç θ p f b y l s z š h. In addition, there are 14 syllabograms da di du ma mi mu ka ku ga gu ja ji va vi; the sounds of ki gi ju vu were not present in the language. Finally, the letters t n r are used before a and i only, with syllabograms for tu nu ru. It was common, but not universal, for the syllabograms to be redundantly followed by the corresponding vowel letter.

This particular example reminds me of the Old Latin usage of C before E and I, K before A, and Q before O and V…

Right; Etruscan did the same and is presumably where the Romans got the idea (and Greek inscriptions used qoppa before back vowels, and sometimes consonants, into the classical period). In fact some of the Tartessian signs look related to the Phoenician-derived velar letters, too, but with a different distribution — at least according to the charts at the Wiki page, ka looks like gamma, ke looks like kappa, and ki looks like qoppa. It seems strange that they would have deliberately extended this system to the other stops and no further, but maybe that’s what they did.

“… Old Irish laigid, with several further examples in the Tartessian inscriptions: lakaatii ‘lies down’, lakeentii and lakiintii ‘they lie down’, and ro.laHaa ‘I have lain down’

The connection may not be well-accepted yet, but that last one is quite the grammatical coincidence if they are not related.

A little googling, which I should have done before posting, reveals that Tartessos is beneath Huelva, which name had been rattling about in the back of my mind as I wrote that post, and that the archaeologist claiming to have found Atlantis in southern Spain is a gadfly discredited by the local archaeological establishment. An old story.

JC: the Turdetani are in the English Wikipedia

So are their almost-neighbours the Turduli (mentioned in the same article and also located on the map of Pre-Roman Iberia).

Interesting. But instead of with modern Basque, have you tried to compare it with reconstructions of the last common ancestor of all Basque dialects, or “internal reconstructions” of what the ancestor of that ancestor may have looked like at the time in question? Such reconstructions exist and are published.

This is precisely what I’ve done : I deliberately transcribed “arraiui” as “arrain” because “u” [w] is an old equivalent to [n].
This is proven by worldwide linguistics comparisons.
Futhermore, the [n] here is pronounced [ny] in Euskara ; in other words, it is written “arrain” in Latin script, but the typical Basque native pronouciation is “arrainy”.
This is the same for “robare”, the genuine word is Euskara being “lapur”, the two stemming from an old “laubaure” are totally equivalent (Spanish “robar” is not indo-European so one have to assume it is Iberian).

Nevertheless, it is a straight forward tentatve reconstruction made late at night, I’m pretty confident with the overall meaning, but if you have better ideas for some part, they are still welcome.

“u” [w] is an old equivalent to [n]

…no. No, I’m sorry, you’re not making any sense here. Sound changes between [w] and [n] are extremely rare at best.

Pessimist! Perhaps the horse will learn to sing.

(Googling to confirm my evidently erroneous impression that this came from somewhere in the كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة, I see that it has at least been attributed to Mullah Nasruddin …)

Initial w became n in Arapaho …

https://www.academia.edu/2107195/The_sound_change_s_n_in_Arapaho

Perhaps the horse will learn to sing

Thanks for this excuse template, David E ! I had not heard of it. According to the following version, said to have been passed on by Idries Shah, the offer was made for the king’s favorite horse. Not just any horse. I’m still mulling over the possible implications of that detail:

# In Persia many centuries ago, the Sufi mullah or holy man Nasruddin was arrested after preaching in the great square in front of the Shah’s palace. The local clerics had objected to Mullah Nasruddin’s unorthodox teachings, and had demanded his arrest and execution as a heretic. Dragged by palace guards to the Shah’s throne room, he was sentenced immediately to death.

As he was being taken away, however, Nasruddin cried out to the Shah: “O great Shah, if you spare me, I promise that within a year I will teach your favourite horse to sing!”

The Shah knew that Sufis often told the most outrageous fables, which sounded blasphemous to many Muslims but which were nevertheless intended as lessons to those who would learn. Thus he had been tempted to be merciful, anyway, despite the demands of his own religious advisors. Now, admiring the audacity of the old man, and being a gambler at heart, he accepted his proposal.

The next morning, Nasruddin was in the royal stable, singing hymns to the Shah’s horse, a magnificent white stallion. The animal, however, was more interested in his oats and hay, and ignored him. The grooms and stablehands all shook their heads and laughed at him. “You old fool”, said one. “What have you accomplished by promising to teach the Shah’s horse to sing? You are bound to fail, and when you do, the Shah will not only have you killed – you’ll be tortured as well, for mocking him!”

Nasruddin turned to the groom and replied: “On the contrary, I have indeed accomplished much. Remember, I have been granted another year of life, which is precious in itself. Furthermore, in that time, many things can happen. I might escape. Or I might die anyway. Or the Shah might die, and his successor will likely release all prisoners to celebrate his accession to the throne”.

“Or…”. Suddenly, Nasruddin smiled. “Or, perhaps, the horse will learn to sing”. #

I also find the “horse will learn to sing” attributed to Herodotus. Can anyone rule this out? Nasruddin stories are semi-infinite in number, but Herodotus has a fixed text, after all.

@John Cowan: The Web seems to be unanimous that the attribution to Herodotus originates from (of all bizarre sources) The Mote in God’s Eye. It is not clear whether this was an error by Niven and Pournelle, or an in-universe error by the Motie who tells the story.

@David Eddyshaw: I found that The Mote in God’s Eye stands up quite well on rereading. However, I would not suggest reading the sequel, The Gripping Hand more than once. It’s definitely an inferior novel, in several different ways. For one thing, the Pournelle to Niven ratio seems to have increased quite a bit relative to the first book.

More fundamentally, it suffers from a difficulty that arises pretty much inevitably when one sets out to create a sequel to a certain type of story. Near the end of The Mote in God’s Eye, there is a scene where a group of Motie leaders are discussing what to do in the aftermath of the human’s visit. One of the younger Moties speaks up and says that interacting with the humans is going to mean a fundamental change in the way the Moties operate—a change that is inevitable and so should be embraced. The others call her Crazy Eddie, and she is hussled away, but as the rest of the Moties look around at one-another, they all know that she’s right. Crazy Eddie is finally going to win his eternal war against the Cycles. When or how exactly, they don’t know; but it’s coming.

That’s a powerful ending, and it makes it difficult to tell a follow-on story when the message at the end of the original is, We don’t know exactly how, but from now on, things are going to be fundamentally different. The Gripping Hand—like the sequels to Neuromancer or, for that matter, The Matrix—was fundamentally unable to live up to that kind of open-ended yet epic conclusion.

@dm, de
The word for place in KONGO appears to be sika. So these other words are only minor variations.

I will also mention the 1993 and 20-years-later sequel The Gripping Hand. I wish they had retained the authors’ title The Moat Around Murcheson’s Eye, but I can see that the publisher would fear the two might be confused, harming the sales of the latter.

But what really turns Mote/Moat upside down and shakes it is J. R. (as distinct from J. E.) Pournelle’s Outies, which is both written by and starring an actual anthropologist (though the two should not be confused) as opposed to that pseudo-anthropologist Sally Fowler. In this book we find out, for example, that while the upper classes of the Empire of Man speak English (why do sf writers insist on calling it Anglic?) and Russian, the interstellar gig economy is conducted in Tok Pisin. And of course the aristocrats are entitled assholes who crush middle-class Kevin Renner with their little fingers, but J. E. would never show you that.

(The only planet we have is not a monoculture: why should other planets be? Gordon Dickson is the only sf writer I know of who constructed an actual rationale for monocultural planets, even though it is mystical more than somewhat. Pournelle’s prison planets are mixed, but that’s just an excuse for him and others to write endless civil war stories.)

David Eddyshaw : thanks for this one, i think Gur languages have a lot to tell us about ancient Africa history, as they are amongst the oldest (if not the oldest) African languages.

David Marjanović : that’s Lurbira in Euskara (Lur : earth ; bira : revolutionnary > Lurbira : Earth goddess, orb), where the sense “bira” precede “ball” (ultimately related), meaning Euskara is older than Chinese.
This does add nothing to the point.
Of course, Japanese and Corean words came frome Chinese, I just add them so as anybody can see a whole variation of the world “diqiu”, and get a better understanding of the sounds involved.

It is not “lupar” and never was, it is “lapur”.
Sound correspondance is of prime importance in Euskara, and “lapur” correlates with “txakur” (dog), and, as I said, “labur” (short).
So “lapur” / “robar” split is very old, but in anyway can not predate the first migration to England (i.e. deglaciation 12 000 years ago), as attested by English “grab”.
The “o/u” group (German, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Latin, Galician, Italian and Corsican) probably developped as a need to differ from the source, thus proving it is a loanword in those languages.
Romanian is not of any help here, as it retained only the final (“fura” from “lapura”), but indicates the “a” of the second syllabe in Spanish postdates the Thracian split (3000 years ago), but predates German/Latin split (2700 years ago).
So the form “raubar(e)” is quite modern, less than 3000 years old.
Possibly the sound variation came under Etruscan influence.

Concerning the initial “r”, as I told before, the original word started with a plain L (ł), which explains “gr” in English (grab) and even “tx” in “txakur” (initial łakwur), that’s why it became “r” in Spanish but the word precedes Castillan developpement as attested by German.

For “silo” from “zilo”, I am glad that you’re not telling me the Euskal word “zilo” came from Latin.
But “silo” is not a loanword, it is the same word.
To understand this, imagine Iberian women marry with Latin men (soldiers), they mix and then the Castillan tribe appears.
Some words like male characteristics (names for sun, god, or tools) will come from Latin, as for the grammatical constructions etc…, but still the mother will teach the children some of the native words, and yes “zilo/zulo” have to be one of thiese native words that the language will keep (farming was very important for the iberians).
In fact, 25 % of castillan is (near) pure Euskara.

Concerning the separation between Sino-Tibetans and Europeans, the split is estimated to around 60000 years ago.
But at least two splits have been recently detected.
That is consistent with the fact that the European population is essentially mixed, as we all know Indo-Europeans came later than Iberians or Etruscans.
But Etruscan, and even Indo-European, are obviously much closer to Sino-Tibetan than Basque language (Euskara) is.
To identify with confidence the link between Iberian and Sino-Tibetan, one has to go back to Nostratic (between 75000 and 250000 years old).
So yes, precursors of Iberian and Sino-Tibetan lived in the same area, but 260000 years ago.

one has to go back to Nostratic (between 75000 and 250000 years old)

You appear not to know what ‘Nostratic‘ means.

Not even the most gung-ho Nostraticist would include Sino-Tibetan. Neither would they make any claims about a time-depth of 260,000 years. That’s a whole order of magnitude out. I thought that was a typo with too many zeroes, but you’ve put it several times. That’s nearly as old as the earliest fossils showing evidence of homo sapiens.

So the language you appear to be making claims about is tantamount to proto-human.

People here “know what you are talking about”, because they’ve encountered similar preposterous (well, not as preposterous) claims from amateurs before — in fact Hat has hosted several entertaining discussions. Basque seems to be a peculiarly fruitful source of claims — going back to Edo Nyland, a Canadian Forestry scientist, who took up historical linguistics in his retirement. He didn’t use the Comparative Method; he didn’t speak Euskara; he (similar to you) claimed all the ‘experts’ were ignorant.

Could I ask what is your speciality, and what you’ve published to do with language origins? What is the source for your claim of a link between Iberian and Sino-Tibetan? Who has reconstructed the applicable languages at that kind of time-depth?

I had no idea that izquierda was Basque – and yet now I know, it looks so obviously Basque. Hiding in plain sight…

Except when I mean “Nostratic”, you shall understand “Borean”, which is, all the world languages minus khoï-san and niger-congo.

And North Germanic! Don’t forget North Germanic!

when I mean “Nostratic”, you shall understand “Borean”

Then why do you say “Nostratic”? Borean is simply not the same thing. Nostratic is supposed to be one branch of Borean.

And last, I also compare with populations blood signature.

Too bad for you that languages aren’t genetically heritable.

” Basque is included in Sino-Caucasian” and that is me who is the clown here? Yes, there are links between Japanese and Eukara

…but Japanese is not Sino-Caucasian. It is Nostratic instead.

I spend the last 10 years comparing world languages, is it Ok for you?

LOL, no, why? I spent more than the last 30 years doing that, and I’m not even a professional!

Papua-New Guinea and Australian languages, from which NIger-Congo stemmed

That explains the archaeological evidence showing that West Africa was settled from Australia. I’ve often wondered about that.

@Plastic:

Your linguistic argument is irrefutable. It’s a puzzle …
The word is obviously cognate with the Nawdm búrgú “goat”, too.
Ultimately it comes, of course, from ber (as the work of that great Scotsman Nicholas Marr has shown.)

I’ve learn to make the difference between a pure original language, like Basque (which IS genetically heritate, as you say),

This is very interesting! But can you clarify? Are you saying that if a Basque child were raised from birth by Hungarian-only parents, that child would grow up to only speak Basque regardless of only hearing Hungarian from their parents, or would they speak both pure Basque and pure Hungarian, or would the language be a blend of Basque and Hungarian that neither Basque-speakers nor Hungarian-speakers could understand?

Or do you mean that if the Basque child were raised in isolation by mute caregivers, only then would they speak pure Basque, and otherwise, the learned language would dominate?

Or do you mean something else?

I note that WikiP has a page for Language deprivation experiments. Huh.

“Imanol Duhalde” is an EXACT ANAGRAM of “Almeida Samo.”
Coincidence? I think not.

“Owlmirror says:
October 20, 2020 at 1:13 pm
I’ve learn to make the difference between a pure original language, like Basque (which IS genetically heritate, as you say),

This is very interesting! But can you clarify? Are you saying that if a Basque child were raised from birth by Hungarian-only parents, that child would grow up to only speak Basque regardless of only hearing Hungarian from their parents, or would they speak both pure Basque and pure Hungarian, or would the language be a blend of Basque and Hungarian that neither Basque-speakers nor Hungarian-speakers could understand?

Or do you mean that if the Basque child were raised in isolation by mute caregivers, only then would they speak pure Basque, and otherwise, the learned language would dominate?

Or do you mean something else?

I note that WikiP has a page for Language deprivation experiments. Huh.”

Well in fact, I’ve experienced it one time.
There was a family standing in front of me at the restaurant, and the little boy keep repeating “kaysho” on ad on. Well, this is the way to say “hello” in Euskara.
But they weren’t Basque.

As for language deprivation, the experiment was made once by a pharaoh Psammetichus I, who asked a shepperd to keep children in isolation from birth, so as they could not hear a single word spoken.
The pharaoh wanted to know if the first word which will come from the child would be Egyptian, of course.
But in fact, when the children were able to speak, they opened their hands and uttered “Bekos”, which is the Phrygian word for “bread”.
The pharaoh then concluded Phrygian language was older than Egyptian one, and has to be the original language.
But one thing he didn’t know was that “bazkartu” means “have lunch” in Euskara, so old Basque “bäzkäs” is “lunch” or “food”.
In other words, how the children would have known about “bread” ?
They were clearly asking for food, so the first word they ever used was in Basque language.
So yes, Eukara is older than Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic.

Now is it a language inherit in human?

Well, first, this was shown many times, the Bible can only be understood properly with Basque.
1) The name : bible is a contraction equivalent to “beribil” (cyclic), which is precisely what it is all about : the cyclic character of existence, of history,…
2) The snake-shaft of Moïse, which he called “Nahas”, from it stemmed Hebrew “nahas”, a kind of snake. In Euskara, “nahasti” means “reptile”.
3) Jericho : the name is easily explained as “herri-txo”, which is “little country”. In other words, one of the oldest towns was explained as a whole little country, because it was so big for the time standards. It can also be related to the Euskal word for moon, “illargia”.
4) Hebrew god Yareah/Yareak : this one clearly stemmed from “Illargia” (the Moon).
5) Eba : a contraction of “e(mazte)-ba(t)”, meaning “woman-one”, i.e. “the first woman”. You have also the Greec equivalent Pandorra = bat-anderea (first Lady).
6) Kain : “kaina” means “the mark, the sign” in Euskara.
The list can go on and on, as you can figure it out.

Second, the word for “Earth” in Eukara is “The Water land”, how did they knew ?
Yes, today, it is very obvious for us Earth is the watery planet (70% of Earth surface is water), but in a such remote time where the word “Lur” appeared, it is quite unbelievable for us now.

Your example of Hungarian is very interesting, because it is a blend language.
One half appears Uralic, but the other half is unexplained, now just look at this :

Egun(a) : day (Euskara).
Egurats(a) : atmosphere (Euskara).
Ég : sky (Hungarian).

Eguzki(a) : sun (Euskara).
Egy : one (Hungarian).

Bost(eko)(a) : five (Euskara).
Öt : five (Hungarian).

Gurpil(a) : wheel (Euskara).
Gurulni : to roll (Hungarian).

Kotxe(a) : cart, chariot, wagon, car (Euskara).
Kokci : cart, chariot, wagon, car (Hungarian).

Madarikazio(a) : malediction (Euskara).
Átok : malediction (Hungarian).

Bake(a) : peace (Euskara).
Béke : peace (Hungarian).

Baiña : but (Euskara).
Bár : but (Hongrois).

Kortxo(ki)(a) : cork (Euskara).
Kork : cork (Hungarian).

Bizkar : back (Euskara).
Vissza : back (Hungarian).

Atzealde(a), atzera, atzeratu(a), atzeko(a) : rear (Euskara).
Háttér, hátulsó, hátsó : rear (Hungarian).

Mundu(a) : World (Euskara).
Föld : Earth, land (Hungarian).

Gibel(a) : liver (Euskara).
Kɛbɛl : breast (Hungarian).

Errege(a) : king (Euskara).
Régi, öreg : old (Hungarian).

Koro(a) : throne, crown (Euskara).
Corona : crown (Hungarian).

Elur-orein(a) : reindeer (Euskara). [snow-deer]
Taránd : reindeer (Hungarian).

Denbora : The Time (Euskara). [always definite]
Idő(pont) : Time (Hungarian).

Ordu(a)(n) : hour (Euskara).
Óra : hour (Hungarian).

Argizagi(a) : star (Euskara).
Csillag : star (Hungarian).

Mendixka : mound (Euskara).
Bucka : mound (Hungarian).

Apaiz, apez : priest (Euskara).
Apa : father (Hungarian).

Uids(a) : water (Euskara).
Víz : water (Hungarian).

Ozeano : ocean (Euskara).
Óceán : ocean (Hungarian).

Sudur(ra) : nose (Euskara).
Orr : nose (Hungarian).

Ukalondo(a), ukhondo(a) : elbow (Euskara).
Könyök : elbow (Hungarian).

Eta : and (Euskara).
És : and (Hungarian).

Baserri(a) : farm (Euskara).
Ház : house (Hungarian).

Garagardo() : beer (Euskara). [garagar(ra) : barley]
Sör : beer (Hungarian).

Irris(a) : rice (Euskara).
Riz : rice (Hungarian).

“Kotxe(a) : cart, chariot, wagon, car (Euskara).
Kokci : cart, chariot, wagon, car (Hungarian).”
Note also
Volkswagen (Euskara)
Volkswagen (Hungarian)
This shows that the early Volkswagen was developed already by the Basque people before being adopted by less mechanically skilled peoples.

“David Marjanović : This particular example reminds me of the Old Latin usage of C before E and I, K before A, and Q before O and V…”

If you don’t understand the difference between a language and a writing system, I can’t help you.

If you don’t understand that languages aren’t codes, I can’t help you.

And there is no such thing as “old Latin”.

There is such a thing as capital-O Old Latin. It is simply preclassical Latin. The oldest Latin inscriptions are seven hundred years older than Classical Latin, did you not know that?

No, “de” is “soil, land, earth, place, field”

地, dì, “earth, ground, floor, land, field”, the opposite of 天, tiān, “heaven”. Used in such words as 地图, dìtú, “map”, or 地道, dìdào, “subway”.

…no. No, I’m sorry, you’re not making any sense here. Sound changes between [w] and [n] are extremely rare at best.”

Again you were false, you clearly know nothing about languages and sound correspondances.

I was right: we found only one instance, in Arapaho – and that didn’t happen in one step, but through several intermediates.

Who are you to talk about Basque language? It is as conservative as can be.

Oh bullshit. The sound systems of Gascon, Euskara and Castilian have been spending the last 2000 years becoming more similar to each other.

They were clearly asking for food, so the first word they ever used was in Basque language.
So yes, Eukara is older than Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic.

Wow, you actually believe that.

If you actually believe that absurd little story, you’re too credulous to be a scientist, and I can’t help you.

The name : bible is a contraction equivalent to “beribil” (cyclic), which is precisely what it is all about : the cyclic character of existence, of history,…

“Bible” is Greek βίβλιον, which means “book”.

Did you really not know that???

I also find it very odd that you find anything cyclical about the Bible. The Bible tells a linear story from the beginning of the world to its end.

3) Jericho : the name is easily explained as “herri-txo”, which is “little country”. In other words, one of the oldest towns was explained as a whole little country, because it was so big for the time standards. It can also be related to the Euskal word for moon, “illargia”.

So much silliness! Why would the Hebrews dropped the [h]? Why would they have turned tx, [t͡ʃ], into [ħ]? (If you don’t know what that is, look it up.) Or alternatively, why would they have dropped both [h] from hil-hargi-, because that’s what the moon comes from in Euskara: “bright light”, and turned [ɰ] into [ħ]?

You’re not even trying to make sense. You just say “look, how similar!”

That’s not how it works.

You need to find regular sound correspondences between the vocabularies of two languages.

the Greec equivalent Pandorra = bat-anderea (first Lady).

Not Pandorra, but Pandōra.

Πανδώρα, from πᾶν, pān, meaning “all”, and δῶρον, dōron, meaning “gift”, which fits the story she’s in precisely.

Your example of Hungarian is very interesting, because it is a blend language.
One half appears Uralic, but the other half is unexplained

The grammar is Uralic. The basic vocabulary is Uralic. Parts of the cultural vocabulary are West Turkic, others are Slavic, and smaller parts come from all around. There is not much that is unexplained about the Hungarian vocabulary.

Ozeano : ocean (Euskara).
Óceán : ocean (Hungarian).

That word did not exist in Europe before Latin borrowed it from Greek, and medieval European languages borrowed it from Latin (directly or indirectly) after the Latin c [k] had become other sounds, including [t͡s] and [s], when followed by e or i.

(I bet the Hungarian form is directly from the German one, which is pronounced exactly the same: long [o], [t͡s], long [a], no final vowel. German of course got it from medieval Latin.)

You have not studied languages for 10 years. You have squinted at languages for 10 years to get the conclusions you wanted the whole time.

Irris(a) : rice (Euskara).
Riz : rice (Hungarian).

You’re not even trying. Rice was unknown in Europe before the Middle Ages; all European “rice” words are borrowed, directly or indirectly, from Arabic. What next, will you compare words for “computer”? For “Internet”?

“PlasticPaddy says:
October 22, 2020 at 5:52 am
“Kotxe(a) : cart, chariot, wagon, car (Euskara).
Kokci : cart, chariot, wagon, car (Hungarian).”
Note also
Volkswagen (Euskara)
Volkswagen (Hungarian)
This shows that the early Volkswagen was developed already by the Basque people before being adopted by less mechanically skilled peoples.”

Well, while pretending to be a joke (and as would say David (Einstein) Marjanović, “to mock me”), you’re not so far from the truth…

Wagon/wagen clearly stemmed for Euskara “bagoi”, why? Because “goi” means “up”, and that what the use of the first wagons : to carry (“euskarri” in Euskara) things down, from a high point.
Now, the nasalisation doesn’t exist in Basque, that is a clear Indo-European trait, and “bagoi” (older “wagoi”) became wagon/wagen.

But the invention as attested by linguistics, can be confidentely attributed to ancestors of the Basque people.

Now, “volsk” or “wolsk” is the ancient name of the Basque people (Euskaldun), when they were occupying much of west Europe, as attested by the oldest Greek sources (ˈwɔɫkae̯ [Strabo], which became “wasco” under Roman rule).

So Volskwagen really means “wagon of the Basques”.

That’s funny how the truth can get out, even from the most reckless spirits…

“地, dì, “earth, ground, floor, land, field”, the opposite of 天, tiān, “heaven”. Used in such words as 地图, dìtú, “map”, or 地道, dìdào, “subway”.”

That is precisely what I meant, dì means the “flat earth” as in a disc, than combined with “qiú” (revolution), gives the “planet Earth”. “dì” can never mean Earth in the sense you understand it. Obviously, Chinese is too much for your european mind. Ask a Chinese, but do not annoy me anymore on this one, you were wrong.

“I was right: we found only one instance, in Arapaho – and that didn’t happen in one step, but through several intermediates.”
You’re the whole science? you have found only one example, so there is none other? There are countless examples, and that is precisely how Iberian script worked : were you read “ui”, it can be “ñ”. If you can’t understand this, just do not pretend you know anything about linguistics.

“Oh bullshit. The sound systems of Gascon, Euskara and Castilian have been spending the last 2000 years becoming more similar to each other.”
You’re being more absurd than ever, explaining your vulgarity :Castillan and Gascon are Romance languages. The fact they have kept (poorly) Basque substrate is not of any help, as the real Euskal words are deterriorated, beyond recognition. In Euskara, they are called “lengoiak”, Basque language is called “hitzkuntza”, meaning there is no comparisons possible ; they are not believed to be “languages” stricto sensu.
In fact, in light of Euskara, they can not be taken for real languages, merely they are creoles, with some bad Latin input on a bad Basque substrate.
This is precisely what means “Gaztellano” (young-way).
Those creoles can not be used in anyway for old Basque reconstruction, that would be an heresy.
In other words, you don’t understand nothing to Euskara, so please stop insulting this beautiful language.

“Wow, you actually believe that.

If you actually believe that absurd little story, you’re too credulous to be a scientist, and I can’t help you.”

Why not? Of course it shall be taken with precaution, but nonetheless it is an ancient source like others.

““Bible” is Greek βίβλιον, which means “book”.

Did you really not know that???

I also find it very odd that you find anything cyclical about the Bible. The Bible tells a linear story from the beginning of the world to its end.”

Of course I know the academical explanation, then what ? Are you gonna believe everything that is said, can’t you use your brain just once? Why the name of an Hebrew collection of sacred texts would be in Greek?
Otherwise, you should have said, it related more to “Babel” than to Greek “byblios”.
Why would it have been simply called “book” ? Does this explanation satisfy you ? Me, not.

“So much silliness! Why would the Hebrews dropped the [h]? Why would they have turned tx, [t͡ʃ], into [ħ]? (If you don’t know what that is, look it up.) Or alternatively, why would they have dropped both [h] from hil-hargi-, because that’s what the moon comes from in Euskara: “bright light”, and turned [ɰ] into [ħ]?

You’re not even trying to make sense. You just say “look, how similar!”

That’s not how it works.

You need to find regular sound correspondences between the vocabularies of two languages.”

“H” (as in Herri) is older to “j”, I repeat you don’t understand linguistics. H can give anything from N, nothing (as in Indo-European), TX or J (when aspired, becoming just like Hebrew J).
I was referring Illargia because an old stone monument in a shape of a crescent moon have been found recently near Jericho.
Otherwise, it is obvious Jericho came via “herri-txo”.
Again, “tx” is older than “k”, it is very easy to obtain “k” from “tx”. This is obvious and does not need any explanation.

“Illargi(a)” does not mean “bright light” at all, you stupid amateurish !
It means “light of the night” (from “il(lun)-argi).
Clearly, you never understood nothing of Euskara, so stop advancing your silly theories.

“Not Pandorra, but Pandōra.

Πανδώρα, from πᾶν, pān, meaning “all”, and δῶρον, dōron, meaning “gift”, which fits the story she’s in precisely.”

Yes Pandora, which is even closer to my explanation.
Your academical explanation is tentative at best, mine is better as Pandora was the equivalent to Eva for the Greeks, that is, the first woman.

“The grammar is Uralic. The basic vocabulary is Uralic. Parts of the cultural vocabulary are West Turkic, others are Slavic, and smaller parts come from all around. There is not much that is unexplained about the Hungarian vocabulary.”

False, Hungarian is Uralic superimposed on an unknown substrate, but I will bet for “Thracian”. I brought some of these non-uralic words to light, but there are many more.

“That word did not exist in Europe before Latin borrowed it from Greek, and medieval European languages borrowed it from Latin (directly or indirectly) after the Latin c [k] had become other sounds, including [t͡s] and [s], when followed by e or i.

(I bet the Hungarian form is directly from the German one, which is pronounced exactly the same: long [o], [t͡s], long [a], no final vowel. German of course got it from medieval Latin.)”

Again, this is false, Greek “k” would never have give “z” as in Basque. And it is widely recognize that the word is of pre-Greek origin, meaning Pelasgian = Basque.

“You’re not even trying. Rice was unknown in Europe before the Middle Ages; all European “rice” words are borrowed, directly or indirectly, from Arabic.”

Lies, still lies, Arabic word for “rice” is ‘ars. Now tell me, how ‘ars can become “irrisa” ?

Yes, Portuguese and spanish have some arabic words (esecially toponimics), but certainly not Euskara, not A SINGLE ONE.

I strongly advise you to switch to another field where you’ll have better understanding, and USE YOUR BRAIN !

@om
With deference to, and not wishing to preempt, our colleague Imanol, I would suggest a derivation of kimono from Euskara kima “horsehair” is equally plausible.

So Volskwagen really means “wagon of the Basques”.

Finally something in this discussion I can wrap my head around !

Encouraged by this, I surmise that “discussion” derives from “discus throwing” (biffing the ball of conversation to and fro).

почему бы нет ?

# While we were thus civilly biffing the ball of conversation to and fro, a sound which I can best describe as a DONK came in from the South side of Mason’s Yard. More or less simultaneously a sort of WANG occurred about three feet north of my belly button and a large pimple appeared in the door-panel of the Silver Ghost. # [Bonfiglioli, Don’t Point That Thing At Me]

Are we sure that Hittite isn’t derived from Basque, or a Creole of Basque?

It can be easily decomposed as kh-leb, while the first part equates “garia” (the wheat in Euskara), the second part have to come from “labekatu” which is “to bake” : gariak labekatzen > khleb (baked wheat).

From the Arabic-derived rice words, we get Italian risoni, for a kind of pasta that resembles rice. However, this pasta is better known (in Italian and certainly English) as orzo, which sounds like a cognate, but is actually the native Italian word for barley, going all the way back to Proto-Indo-European.

(Or is there more going on here that I’m unaware of?)

“Owlmirror says:
October 22, 2020 at 2:23 pm
Are we sure that Hittite isn’t derived from Basque, or a Creole of Basque?”

Not a creole, but a sister language :

Euskara – arrano (eagle)
Hittite – haaran (eagle)

Euskara -Gurpil (wheel)
Hittite – Ḫūrkis (wheel)

Euskara – Jakin (to know)
Hittite – Sākki (to know)

Euskara – nuke (I – transitive)
Hittite – Ūk (I)

Euskara – Ziek, Zuek, Zuketz (you, singular), zuk (you, singular active)
Hittite – Zīk (you, singular)

Euskara – Bizkar (back)
Hittite – Iskis (back)

Euskara – Jaungoiko, Jainkoa (God)
Hittite – Ši-ú-na, ši-ú-ni-iš (God)

Euskara – Trumoi (thunder)
Hittite – Tarhun (thunder)

Eukara – urtigi, urthuki, urtiki.(to throw)
Hittite – ūssiezzi (to throw)

Euskara – Izarra (the star)
Hittite – Ishara (goddess), Šittar (star)

Euskara – Hartz(a) (bear)
Hittite -Hartagga, ḫartaqqas, hartagas (bear)

Euskara – Luze(a) (long)
Hittie – Dalukis (long)

Euskara – Mehe(a), argal(la) (thin)
Hittite – Maklanz (thin)

Euskara – Haundi(a) (big), garai(a) (high)
Hittite – Sallis (big, high)

Euskara – Subiranoa (sovereign), jauna (lord), jaubea, jabe(a) (owner)
Hittite – Tabarna (lord)

Euskara – Oreina (the deer)
Hittite – Aliyana, a-li-ya-na (the deer)

Euskara – Zathiarazi, Tšikitu (to split)
Hittite – Iskallai (to split)

Euskara – Bizi (to live), Bizitza (life)
Hittite – Huiszi (to live), Huyshwatar (life)

Euskara – Argi(a) (light)
Hittite – Harkis (white)

Euskara – Odol(a) (blood)
Hittite – Eshār (blood)

Euskara – Zikin(ia) (dirty)
Hittite – Iskunanz (dirty).

Euskara – Harri(a), aitz(a) (stone, rock)
Hittite – Passilas (stone, rock)

Euskara – Gara (Hill)
Hittite – Kalmara (Mountain)

Euskara – Erretu (to burn)
Hittite – Urāni (to burn)

Euskara – Hautsa (ash)
Hittite – Hās, hāss- (ash)

Euskara – Hodei(a) (cloud)
Hittite – Tuhhuwais (smoke)

Euskara – Gizona (man)
Hittite – Pisna (man)

Euskara – Aita(txoa) (father)
Hittite – Attaš, attas, atti- (father)

Euskara – Tšatigo, tšatigu (narrow)
Hittite – Hatkus (narrow)

Euskara – Samar(ra) (a little)
Hittite – tēpawes (few)

Euskara – Haur(ra) (child)
Hittite – Hāssas (child)

Euskara – Uids(a), Ur(ra) (Water), Edan (to drink)
Hittite – wātar, witen (Water)

Euskara – Ikuzi (to wash)
Hittite – Ekuzi (to drink)

Euskara – Ibar(ra) (Valley)
Hittite – Hari (Valley)

Euskara – Ibai(a) (River)
Hittite – Hapas (River)

Euskara – Isuri (to flow)
Hittite – Ārszi (to flow)

Euskara – Izotz(a) (ice), Izoztu (to freeze)
Hittite – Ekan (ice), Ekāizzi (to freeze)

Euskara – Euri(a) (rain)
Hittite – Hēus (rain)

Euskara – Belar(ra), Bazka (Grass)
Hittite – Wēlku (Grass)

Euskara – Lore(a), Lili(a) (Flower)
Hittite – Alil (Flower)

Euskara – Aho(a) (Mouth)
Hittite – Ais (Mouth)

Euskara – Beso(a) (Arm)
Hittite – Pāi (Arm)

Euskara – Hirri(a), Uri(a) (Town)
Hittite – Uru (Town)

Euskara – Hartu (to take), Gorde (to keep)
Hittite – Harzi (to hold)

Euskara – Itsusi(a) (ugly, sick)
Hittite – İdālus (bad).

Euskara – Eta (and)
Hittite – Ca, ya (and)

Euskara : Sustrai(ak), Erro(ak) (Root)
Hittite – Sūrkas (Root)

Euskara – Baserri(a) (Farm-house)
Hittite – Peŕ, pir (house)

“languagehat says:
October 22, 2020 at 4:44 pm
Of course there is — orzo is clearly from Basque osa ‘grama grass.’”

Of course not, but Orzo is definitely related to Latin “oriza” (rice).

Perhaps you will be happy to know that a large bunch of the words you listed (ég, egy, öt, hát-, csillag, apa, víz, orr, könyök, ház) have been known to be Uralic for pretty much as long as it has been known that Hungarian is Uralic at all.

There seems to be an obvious answer: Uralic is a sister language of Basque. Or as a wise woman once said: “It’s no use, young man, it’s turtles Basque all the way down!”

Egurtzegi uploads his papers to github.org — any reason why there isn’t a linguistics section of arXiv?

Trask was living through way too many such hours and thoroughly sick of it!

@imanol
You seem to approach your study with objectives and assumptions which strongly bias and limit your findings:
A1 language is heritable and changes only as a result of genetic mixing
A2 it is useful to compare single words in any two languages and a “successful” comparison is always significant and never occurs by accident
A3 some modern languages are older than others, and words are borrowed only from an older language to a younger one
O1 to establish that the Basque language is “older” than other languages spoken in Europe
O2 to show, or at least state forcefully, that anyone who does not share your assumptions and objectives is misinformed or is trying to misinform others.
You admitted that kotxe could have flowed to Basque from another European language. Now look at gurpil. You know that this is gurdi+bil, a special kind of wheel made from two Basque words. Does the Hittite word mean the same kind of wheel or allow the same kind of breakdown? You could also look more critically at some of your other finds????

So language isn’t heritable after all? And I was thinking we could search the human genome for the mutations responsible for sound changes.

Here’s the intro of Larry Trask’s Basque page:

Welcome to my Basque page. I’m a linguist with a special interest in the Basque language, and I’ve tried to make available here some useful information on Basque. I think I can guarantee that the information you’ll find here is accurate and free of the errors, misconceptions, and just plain lunacies that so often turn up in published sources of information on the language.

These pages are under development [not since 2004, alas], and comments, suggestions, and corrections are most welcome; you can e-mail me here. If you can’t find the information you’re looking for, I’ll be happy to try to answer a brief question, or to provide a reference to published work where you can find answers to longer questions.

But please note: I do not want to hear about the following:

Your latest proof that Basque is related to Iberian / Etruscan / Pictish / Sumerian / Minoan / Tibetan / Isthmus Zapotec / Martian

Your discovery that Basque is the secret key to understanding the Ogam inscriptions / the Phaistos disc / the Easter Island carvings / the Egyptian Book of the Dead / the Qabbala / the prophecies of Nostradamus / your PC manual / the movements of the New York Stock Exchange

Your belief that Basque is the ancestral language of all humankind / a remnant of the speech of lost Atlantis / the language of the vanished civilization of Antarctica / evidence of visitors from Proxima Centauri

I definitely do not want to hear about these scholarly breakthroughs.

Oops, I just noticed Hat’s stricture. I’ll say no more.

Okay Bahamonde.

David’s link in the Basque thread to an answer to Koch also gives reason to think Koch’s is at best a hopeful answer. Koch’s “simply ancient common Celtic” is an incredible exaggeration. If that were true, it should be obvious to everyone.