I have just discovered that there is a group of Gypsies called Sinti (or Sinto) that is apparently distinct from the Roma, but I am unable to find detailed information other than that they mostly hail from northern and western Europe (Germany, France, the Netherlands, &c.). It seems to be politically correct in Germany to speak of “Sinti and Roma” rather than “Zigeuner” (Gypsies). If anyone out there knows more (for example, whether there are linguistic differences), I would be much obliged if you’d pass it on. It’s very hard on me when both the internet and my excessively laden bookshelves fail me.
Addendum. And that goes for the Jenisch (or Yenish or Yeniche) too.
Answer. The learned Bob Cohen has provided the following information in the comments section, which pretty much clears the matter up; thanks, Bob!
Speaking of “Roma and Sinti” is like saying “Jews and Sephardim”. The Sinti dialect is definately Rromanes, but not intelligible to speakers of Kalderash or Balkan Rromanes. They mix in a lot of German influence and lack the heavily Romanian influences of Kalderash/Vlashiko…. As for Jenische, it isn’t very much spoken any more—there is a Jenische web page for Swiss Jenische, they seem to have been a non-Rroma group who adapted and intermarried with Rroma.
This probably won’t help much, but could this be the group to which Django Reinhardt belongs?
Speaking of “Roma and Sinti” is like saying “Jews and Sephardim”. The Sinti dialect is definately Rromanes, but not intelligible to speakers of Kalderash or Balkan Rromanes. They mix in a lot of German influence and lack the heavily Romanian influences of Kalderah/Vlashiko. Yes, Django was a Sinti, they are known as “Manouche” in France, from Rromanes “Manush” meaning man. As for Jenische, it isn’t very much spoken any more – there is a Jenische web page for Swiss Jenische, they seem to have been a non Rroma group who adapted and intermarried with Rroma. The name comes from “Dzan”, Rromanes for “to Know” as in “They know our language. If you want more word lists or stuff, I got ’em.
Bob
Thanks, Bob; that just about takes care of everything I wanted to know! Being able to ask obscure questions and have them answered overnight… what a wonderful world!
Are the so-called “Irish Tinkers” or “Irish Travelers” gypsies as well?
Just wondering. . .
No, they have a similar lifestyle and are often confused with Gypsies but are quite distinct; here‘s a useful page on them.
It was only a matter of time before you and Bob discovered each other, Steve! Just a year I interviewed Bob [another New Yorker] for a music website on the subject of his folk-music and linguistic erudition in a bar in Budapest….
Hello Bob!
I think I’ll hang up a sign “Steve’s American Café” and serve virtual cocktails to all the cosmopolites who drop by. The internet: Casablanca of the mind!
Hello, I have been studying all nomadic groups of Europe for a while now, I have a prime interest in the Jenisch but are unable to find much info except that page (Above entry), I have found lots of pages but they are in German and sadly I don’t speak the language, my question is with reference to the nomadic movement into Scandinavia in the 1500 – 1800 period, I have good reason to believe that a large group of Jenisch moved into the region in that period and has lots of descendants still living there including myself, but I am not sure? A bit sad really….so if any one can help me please don’t hesitate to mail me:)
You might send Bob an e-mail (click on bob cohen under the second comment); he’s incredibly knowledgeable and very helpful.
i tried to send bob the mail, but his adr was not working, so i will just post it here and hope he finds it?
Nove
Hello, I got your e-mail adr of languagehat and I though I would send you an mail and see if you could provide me with any new info regarding the Jenisch people of Switzerland, prologue; my family come from a nomadic people on the west cost of Norway, they came there some time in between 1500 – 1800, but so did the Roma as well, and the result is that the grand children of these nomads who came to Norway cant find their roots or emigration routs and it has lead to a lot of arguments. I found out that the nomads of western Norway must be a mix between the two groups, but when I started to look for proof of this Jenisch travel from Switzerland via Germany and Denmark into Norway I didn’t find much, except language, it seems that it has left a little clue that is still alive in Denmark, but has long ago disappeared from Norway, I found it to be Rotwelsch in Germany, rodi in Norway and Denmark, but that is as far as I can go as I have tried to contact the Jenisch in Switzerland via internet: http://www.Jenisch.ch , but they are ignoring my questions, but I am not sure if they understand English? And I cannot read German very well.
Nove
i sinti sono dei giostrai?
se qualcuno avesse materiale per favore mandatemelo.
grazie
There is now, of course, a Wikipedia page for Sinti, which says:
The Reisende theory sounds silly to me, but what do I know?
Matras covers the subject very thoroughly here (pp. 108–111). He traces it as far back as early thieves’ cant.
I don’t know where Lee got his “Reisende” idea. He just mentions it as an aside.
Thanks!
Also Jenische https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yenish_people
And more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itinerant_groups_in_Europe
The Reisende theory sounds silly to me, but what do I know?
There is a recent treatment of the etymology of Sinte, with a survey of previous proposals, in Daphne Reitinger (2023) ‘The origin of the self-appellation Sinti: A historical and linguistic examination’, Romani Studies vol. 33, no. 2, available in open access here. Reitinger argues for a derivation from Middle High German sint ‘way, road; journey’.
Now, that makes sense.
Middle High German sint ‘way, road; journey’.
which makes me wonder whether “rom”, “dom”, etc as rromani endonyms (generally understood to be from the meaning “man, husband”, and ultimately from the caste name “dom / doma”) are etymologically entangled with “drom” [road/journey], which (according to this database) is common to many roma lects. if so (or if it’s believed to be so) “sinti” would make a lot of sense as a calque.
Middle High German sint ‘way, road; journey’
What sort of MHG word is that? What are its cognates? In Mittelhochdeutsches Wörterbuch or Mittelhochdeutsches Wörterbuch von Benecke, Müller, Zarncke I only find the cognate of ‘since’.
I wondered about that, and proleptically* call BS. In various places, for example Linz, there is a Sintstraße. Imagine a blank in there: Sint Straße. Looks like a dictionary entry explaining that Sint means Straße.
It would not be the first time that willful insertion of blanks has caused cognitive havoc.
* the anticipating and answering of an argument before one’s opponent has a chance to advance it.
I only find the cognate of ‘since’
This must have to do with the lemmatization of the digital version of BMZ and its interaction with searches. Entry for sint ‘Weg, Gang, Reise, Fahrt’ in the online BMZ here (or alternatively here under the heading SINDE SANT SUNDEN). Print version here, p. 294 (volume 2, part 2).
What are its cognates?
As for the cognates, see for example Pfeifer on this family of words, under Gesinde. More on the root *sent- in the online Altlitauisches etymologisches Wörterbuch here, for example (scroll down to the section ‘Kommentar’). (Old entry in Pokorny here.)
The weak spot seems to me to be the bit about -e transforming the root “road” into a collective noun for “travellers.” There seems to be a good bit of hand-waving going on in that section, to cover up the awkward fact that there seems to be no such word in yer actual German.
MHG is much too early and not relevant, unless there is evidence of suitable descendants in more recent German.
I think I would have gone with Gesinde instead. (Not a brilliant meaning for a supposed autonym, though.)
Danish has sinde for ‘times’ in number words (firs = 80 short for firsindstyve). As you do, cf. modern gange for multiplcation in general with another verbal noun = ‘going’. Alledgedly derived from the causative of an extinct strong verb by which I assume they mean it didn’t survive in North Germanic, but is the same as MHG(?) sinde, sand, (ge)sunden. A different ablaut or umlaut somehow to send/e/n. And if that is a causative and thus weak, what is gesandt doing there? (It’s regular weak in Danish).
Anyway, the ODS also has an obsolete noun sinde for a member of a noble’s travelling company. So yes, it did once mean ‘traveller’ in Germanic.
Wikipedia can’t quite agree with itself whether there’s one PIE root *sent- meaning ‘head for’ or two identical ones meaning ‘go’ and ‘feel’.
Anyway, the ODS also has an obsolete noun sinde for a member of a noble’s travelling company
The paper does mention that the leaders of the nomadic bands were called “dukes.” So I suppose that the leadees actually could end up being called by the word for a noble’s entourage. “Noble’s travelling company” is not such a stretch to imagine as a Roma autonym, either.
https://www.zdl.org/wb/wortgeschichten/Gesindel
“Gesindel steht nunmehr [PP: ab 1700] für gesellschaftliche Randgruppen (wie Landstreicher, Bettler, Juden). ”
“Eine solche Verkleinerung muss allerdings nicht in jedem Fall eine kosende Verniedlichung der gemeinten Person bzw. des gemeinten Sachverhalts darstellen; es kann sich vielmehr mit der Vorstellung der Kleinheit auch leicht das Gefühl des Mitleids oder der Verachtung einstellen (Paul, Dt. Gr. 5, 51), weshalb Verkleinerungen durchaus nicht immer positiv zu interpretieren sind.”
The first quote is about the change in the meaning around 1700 from neutral “Gesamtheit der Bediensteten”, i.e., “servants”, to “marginalised group”.
The second quote is about the use of the diminutive suffix -l, warning the reader that employment of this suffix does not always imply an affectionate (or positive) attitude on the part of the speaker towards the thing(s) or person(s) to which the suffix is applied.
There’s also the fact that Sinti actually seems to have started out as an exonym (cited in Rotwelsch beside the certainly autonymous Kaale, found in Spanish, Finnish and Welsh Romanes), so an originally pejorative sense is not out of the question.
The first quote is about the change in the meaning around 1700 from neutral “Gesamtheit der Bediensteten”, i.e., “servants”, to “marginalised group”.
The “servants” meaning is preserved in the neutral word Gesinde in 18-19C novels. Gesindel now means “low-lifes”. I expect DM will claim that Gesindel is now only “literary” – but that’s just his favorite word to mean “not current in scientific circles”.
The first quote is about the change in the meaning around 1700 from neutral “Gesamtheit der Bediensteten”, i.e., “servants”, to “marginalised group”.
Like Stu, I have encountered Gesinde only as a neutral and now very literary word for “servants / farmhands”; never as meaning “marginalized group”. Gesindel is always pejorative.